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Archive of Player Communication from 2008


Mike on all points you are correct. I was thinking that to prevent mobbing by the gobs that we close off/narrow a passageway so that you can totally block it off with Antarias. As a dwarven defender they won't be able to get past you and get to those in the back. Your AC will drop even lower (not that it will be needed). Then the archers and spell casters of the group can shoot over your head. If Guy's character takes a polearm proficiency he can also attack over your head. Also if there are others controlling the gobs it improves your saving throws if you are in a defensive stance. The gobs though may be on their own, not likely but still a small possibility.

Next point of contention about Archery is that it isn't who threatens you but who you threaten as far as attacks are concerned. So a warrior archer threatens anyone within range if he wins initiative, therefore heroic fray would come into account here.


The point about the bow in this case is rather moot since Fin isn't a warrior and the page says only warriors get the ability. And Bob, a specialized archer gets 3 shots/round, not 2. So if he DID get double it would be 3. ALSO, a specialized archer gets a new range of "point blank" which is I think off the top of my head 6'. So anyone attacking him with large/polearm weapons would indeed be threatening him, giving ranged weapons the possibility of getting heroic fray bonus attacks.

And for the record, ahead of time, Anterias gets 2/3 attacks with his sword and a shield punch. So with heroic fray he will get 4/6 attacks and two shield punches. Also, Fritz knows this but not sure if anyone else does, his sword has life steal, and he has a -8 AC. He can simply wade into the middle of the fray and be a blender, healing up any natural 20's the gooblins manage to roll. That's what I figured I'd do with him unless someone has a better idea.

Also, anything I've ever come in contact with about the underdark has made it pretty clear that goblins are a slave race down here. So I'm thinking that this horde if it is goblins, will have masters leading them. I'm thinking these goblins are probably going to just be a nuisance while their masters are a real danger. I'm thinking that Paul with his spells and Fin with his range might want to hold back from the mob of gobs and hunt down the more dangerous masters. I'd guess just based on my underdark lore that they'll be either drow or illithid. Mmmmm... Calamari.....



The "double primary weapon attacks" means if Anterias gets 2 axe attacks every round, plus a shield punch he gets 4 axe attacks, plus the shield punch, plus the one extra attack that is not an axe attack during a heroic fray. It is not double normal attacks plus extra. I believe we played this wrong the last time we did a heroic fray and so am clarifying now before we start again.

And you only get the attacks if you are threatened, and you can not use a bow against those who are treatening you with short swords. So missle weapons are out as I understand the rule.



Bob I have to agree with Mike. A fighter gets double his normal weapon attacks PLUS an additional punch, kick, grab etc. So if Antarias normally gets 2 attacks a round with his sword. He would now get 5 attacks a round. 4 weapon attacks and a punch or kick. If he normally gets 3 attacks a round - 2 sword attacks and a secondary attack being a shield punch he would now get 6 attacks; 4 sword attacks, his normal extra shield punch, then one extra punch, or kick, or grab etc...

Also your comment about it not including missile weapons is incorrect. It is the Warriors PRIMARY weapon. So in Finglass' case if he get 3 bow attacks a round, he now would get 6 bow attacks, plus a punch, or kick etc...



Yes doubles the number of attacks. That does not mean extra weapon attacks. So in Finglas' example you get the two shots per round that are normal, plus the extra shot, but the heroic fray attacks are not done with the bow, they are kicks, punches, etc.

Anterias would get the weapon, weapon, shield punch, then kick, punch, etc.

Just want everyone to know that all those extra attacks are not sword slashes, arrows hitting home, etc.



But Bob, the site says it doubles the rate of attacks and in addition allows one punch/kick/shield punch per round. So depending on our rate of attacks, warriors will get a bunch of extra attacks.


2008 December 10+7+1

A note to be prepared for on the Heroic Fray idea also.

Please read carefully, you do not get a bunch of extra weapon attacks. You get to punch, kick, etc.

Here is hoping that everyone is here and early or late and saves the day.


2008 December 10+7

I will make a specific mention on the Extraordinary vision section about illusions, but yes they are fooled by illusions they can see. Visual only illusions affect anyone who can see them, does not matter how they see them for normal sight or Ultravision. Infravision would not be fooled by low level illusions without a heat component.

And commented on the shadow magic issue also.


BOB if you want to really finish, you should say how light and vision effect Illusions. Namley can someone with Ultravison be fooled by an Illusion, is there plus or minus to their saves. As for specifics at hand, I'd rather start a separate page for my questions on Shadow Magic


17 December

Mike, I'm sure if you could go back in time, there would be people who would have a different story to tell. NOBODY is perfect all the time. Even Malagorn has a cross to bear. You need proof? We're STILL trying to clear the freaking brownies out of the kitchens! Seriously, for every person who "excels at all things", there is a friend or family member who could tell you a few stories Mr. or Ms. Perfect wouldn't want you to know. And no, our characters aren't meant to be normal. But EVERY person has flaws. Even Mr. Jefferson.

In the end, how you play your character is up to no one but yourself, and if you can't be happy with that character then there's no point playing it. However, I am entitled to say what I feel, and I did. And I'm sure I won't again.

Fritz, Moirra has 34 hit points and no fighting skill (except against her own party members). I have always had the fear of something bad happening at any moment. Give up a few hps and a skill or two, and you, too, can live with the fear. :-D


Hey give me a wild goose chase with action and adventure and I don't mind. I love the fact that we are in the underdark and are in a totally unfamiliar environment. I would actually LOVE to stay down here and adventure for awhile, or even come back after we are finished with the current adventure. That is what makes all this fun. I think a prolonged adventure down here would be "exciting and new" being on the "Love Boat" with a sadistic killer on the board. I was actually getting kind of bored with the Trogs, and Piercers being our only main opponents up till now. The giant grey ooze colony was a different twist on things but we avoided that. I really wish I could have brought Mentor and Val'Iant down here. Realize that Bob can scale adventures for our characters no matter what level they are.

I think that one thing we are missing in our games is the fear of something bad happening at any moment. The thrill of success when we survive, and the excitement of overcoming obstacles. We need to go back to the basics of what gaming is about.



I think when everyone reads through the two sections they will see that it covers everything we need in a quick to handle matter. Ultravision means you don't need light to see is the quick quote.

I would never send you on a wild goose chase that had no purpose. And if you are already getting edgy about being in the Underdark after only two days, just wait until you get to the really dangerous parts. Plus the travel back when you get to go through all this again.



I know it comes a bit late since it looks like Bob made his ruling, but just to throw my two coppers in I'd say we should go with the book rules. While not all rules in any game setting may make sense to us when thinking purely scientifically, the book defines the world we play in. So if the DMG says we see in the dark just fine for 60' then I think that's how we should do it. This would also make it a ton easier to decide what to do with light. Continual light gives us 60' of visibility. Same as the DMG infravision. Great. Problem solved. With all our noise the denizens will know we're coming anyway.

And now for you Kaz. About you comment how no one is perfect at everything all the time. I beg to differ. There was once a man you might have heard of: Thomas Jefferson. He was many things in his life time. Farmer, postmaster, writer, publisher, inventor, musician, politician. And according to every text I've ever read about the man he "excelled at all things." So there. And while you may argue that he was one in a billion, so are our characters. I remember a comment the late great Bibo made. While normal people couldn't hold a candle to our characters, our characters aren't supposed to be normal. A story about normal people would be boring. We are the extraordinary. So yes. We are perfect at everything we do. That's what min/maxing is all about.

And so help me BOB, if this stupid city is deserted by the time we get there and we're left with a dead end lead on a wild goose chase I will turn around and end your little underdark foray. It's bad enough that we're so out of our element without your rediculously obscure and open ended non-existent "clues" about what our next step should be.



Ok, the rule for seeing things are in their mostly final state now.

Most people will have the notation on their sheet for Infravision that should be changed to Ultravision.

I am not using the term Darkvision because it is something associated strongly with 3rd edition rule sets and beyond and I do not want to confuse anyone.

I think that these new rules compilations handle what we are looking for in keeping it simple but still semi-realistic. I am still working on one other wrinkle that comes up often in how Invisibility works with all of this but most of that is just in the editing stage now. {edit: now completed}



Bob as I was following your edits and information on vision you had a reference to "Dark Vision" which seemed to be the ability the group was leaning towards. You have currently removed this reference along with the web site link that discussed it. Is there a reason? Are you doing away with this and substituting the more archaic form of "Ultravision" instead?



I humbly and embarrassingly apologize for my previous remarks.



Actually if it is Standard Infravision the rules for light spells is actually much easier. If you are on the outside looking in you can see fine (since the light is a reflected light). If you are on the inside looking out you can only see to the range of your vision. "Light" doesn't affect it. Or if you want to be a magic stickler you can say that within "any" light source you can not use infravision because the ambient light overwhelms that sense.

You are right about turning into a Grimlock wouldn't be helpful. I was wrong about that now that I go back and read the spell. As far as calling them "goblins" that is what the dwarves said so I am going with their assumption since they have more experience.

As long as you have hands and a mouth you can cast any spell you would normally be able to as Paul. If you cast the Shadow Monster spell to create a Deep Dragon, you will need light I believe at least around the Dragon to allow it to be seen, but you can clarify that with Bob. Now if you tell Rave what you are going to do then he can add an additional component of his own illusion to it. The roaring of the dragon, the wall of the cavern busting open, the stench of it's breath, what ever you think would be helpful I can add to your spell. If Bob plays illusions according to the "belivability" rules/factors then anything we do to enhance the illusion will make them less likely to succeed in their saving throw. For example if you have seen it, if you have a model to use, if it is something that could be in the area then it will more likely to be believed (fighting in a swamp and you have some crocidiles attack from the water). If it is really unbelievable (Having Orcus suddenly come to save us)then their saving throw improves.

We currently have 3 votes for "Standard" infravision. We need others imput here or at the least Bob should allow us to take a vote right at the start of the game on Friday.

Finally Vicki's husband helped me to make alot of changes on my router and modem so now my game works on the internet and people can log on. It is also VERY stable. Maybe Bob should talk to him and see if there is anything he can suggest that may help.



The UnderDark City that was abandoned in 1250 TGR I found while looking and the Cental Time Zone Reconing because the date seems recent. When I found it on the "standard" time line it has the same blurb with no explaination.

I think the Infravision has to be standard. There is no way there is so many races living in the dark that would run into walls and off clifs if it was Heat Vision. My question is what happens when you have magical light. The current situation is a good example. We are in a continual light area we can see up to 60'. There are a bunch of ? (Are you sure they are actual Goblins) who have infrvision but can see our light. If they can see our light then if I leave the continual light I should be able to see as well as they do. Or does Infrvision let then see up to the light and then normal vision show them the rest

As far as plans, it depends on who shows up on both sides. I was going to use Shadow Monster to summon a shadowy version of a Deep Dragon. If they belive they take full damage, even if they disbelieve and make a save they take some damage. I was also going to polymorh into a Mind Flair, just to intimate them, maybe a drow. One note I am currently still polymorphed into an ugly Pikie so I am limited in what I can do right away.

Remember Fritz, it does not give you sences only movement.



John where did you read this? I have looked extensively (did a search for Khazefryn) and found no reference to that. I wouldn't be surprised though. Maybe if the prisoner ever wakes up we can ask her if she knows anything about this.

As far as the little war we are hosting, I did come up with a couple of ideas. Maybe Paul, Sebrina, and Rave could quickly turn into Grimlocks or another creature that is blind but uses sound/smell to navigate the underdark. Then we could try and figure out which passage way (possibly all 3 if we are unlucky) that the goblins are going to come from. Each one go to a different tunnel, listen the switch and compare notes as to which is the loudest source of the drumming. Another trick we could try is collapsing/blocking off one or 2 of the passageways so that they can only come at us from one direction.

Another thing is that the issue of how to deal with Infravision has been on the table for a week now with no resolution. I would like for us to take a quick vote on the subject. To either use the STANDARD AD&D INFRAVISION, OR the SCIENTIFIC INFRAVISION.

STANDARD INFRAVISION: Characters can see in the dark as clearly as in daylight to the extent of the range given under character race description.

SCIENTIFIC INFRAVISION: Characters can sense or "see" heat. Comparable to the thermal imaging equipment used by the armed forces. Within their range characters can see the degrees of heat radiated by an object as a glowing blob translated into colors like a thermagram.

For simplicity I suggest we use the STANDARD INFRAVISION.

Finally, I empathize with John about his mind racing with ideas, questions, and plans about D&D. The difference for me is that it actually relaxes me and I use that to help me sleep at night.



I just took a moment and found out something BOB has been hiding right in front of us. According to this very website, the city we are going to was abandonded nine years ago. Not sure how our characters would know that. Just letting you all know what I now know. Maybe you all hear that from our guides in the games I missed? I think Paul may ask a few questions after the little war we are hosting 1st thing Friday. Don't be late.


12/14 I wanted to be honest and more clear after reading a few more personal messages. My reason for not playing, when I don't, is more for the direct effect on me rather then my kids. It is just that without the kids the effect on me would not be a big deal. My kids often spend the evening playing with each other, watching TV or the like. The more direct effect is me lying awake thinking D&D. My mind races with ideas and questions and plans. After I talk to BOB I may share the current one.


Before I respond to anything else, I want to make it clear that the only part of my statement below that Guy is part of is the infravision, where I specifically mentioned him. Any other comments and/or rants are mine alone. I just don't want him to be tarred with my brush. He can get his own brush.

It is tomorrow in Australia.

Wow I didn't think I would get such an emotional response over this issue.

In reading all this discussion I really see why TSR/DMG recommends to KEEP IT SIMPLE!!! There definition of STANDARD INFRAVISION is (Chapter 13)-

"The easiest definition of infravision is that it allows characters to see in the dark. Nothing more is said about how this works - it simply works. Characters do not see into the infrared spectrum or "see" heat or anything else. They just see in the dark as clearly as they do in normal light. However, since it is a somewhat magical power, the range is not that of normal vision-infravision ability extends 60 feet. Beyond this only normal vision is allowed."

This isn't to try and make people uber just to actually make it simple. Look at all the confusion over trying to define it scientifically. I understand about you and Guys feelings about our powerhouse characters (and yes I have one), but this is Bob's style of gaming and what most (not all) of the people in the group prefer. I never have problems with Bob introducing "surprises" into the game whether it is a situation, or a monster. I have always stated I don't mind things going wrong, or even my characters dieing as long as I had fun doing it. After all that is part of the adventure. According to the DMG -

"Invisible creatures and things are not detectable by normal sight or by infravision"

There are multiple ways to "detect" an invisible creature and that also is in Chapter 13. And if a character is detected -

"Finally, even if an invisible character is suspected this doesn't mean that the character will be instantly attacked. The result, especially for less intelligent creatures, may only be increased caution. Having scented the intruder the wolf bristles and growls, protecting it's cubs. The rattlesnake will give its warning rattle. Even the orcs may only circle about warily, alert for an ambush."

Now you may say this is rule lawyering, but without rules and without the knowledge of rules, the game would be chaotic and unbearable. If everyone knows the rules, agrees to the definition of the rules, and agrees to play by the rules then the game goes by more easily and smoothly without conflicts.

Finally as far as your comment about "doing what everyone else wants", that isn't the purpose of these types of discussions or of how I believe Bob wants his game to run. Here it is MAJORITY rules! Your vote and opinion (Guy's vote and opinion) counts just as much as mine, Mike's, Lorie's, John's, anyone else's, heck even Bob's. Don't sell yourself short please by any account.


Still today.

In the clear light of a snowy-kinda day, I'm well aware of how confused I got last night. Infravision does not equal night vision. So, ignore most of my babble, except for a few parts. Like about the gingerbread, that was a perfectly valid and true statement.

I agree with what you say, Mike, about infravision and ultravision. I do not agree that an invisibility spell would mask your heat signature or that it would dampen a sonar signal. It makes you invisible to the naked eye, that's basically it.

Now, based on the minute amount of information I remember about Drow, as well as a conversation with Guy, we both believe they use infravision; i.e. heat sources. So no amount of invisibility is going to work against that. However, if Drow have a penalty in daylight, probably because everything is giving off heat, then they should have a penalty if we whip out enough continual light rocks. Not for long, but at least for a short amount of time. Unfortunately, it will also temporarily screw up the infravision of our dwarf companions, but hey, we're not uber. Then again, neither are they.

And I'm going to step aside for a moment and get something off my chest. If Bob's monsters/bad guys always seem to have some outstanding surprises and advantages, it's probably because some of the Dragonslayers seem to have absolutely no disadvantages. None. Moirra is flawed and weak, and couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag - though she might be able to talk her way out of one - but some of you are practically demi-gods. I realise this is partially the result of many years of play, but even then it is your experiences in the past that guide you in building your character for maximum pwnage effect. I'm sorry, but no one is that good or that perfect. No one has every answer to every question, every tool for every situation. At least, they SHOULDN'T. But some DO. It's a game about a magic land, yeah, I get it. Suspend disbelief. Right. But, you know, only to a point.

Back to the issue at hand, I believe that an invisibility spell is incapable of fooling sonar, radar, or infravision. A silence spell could probably fool sonar. Scattered sources of major heat would severely mess with infravision, and dressing to contain body heat (which Mike brought up) would help against it, too.

I can't imagine why anyone of us would see perfectly in the dark, unless they have ultravision. Why should we? To be uber and have the easiest path?

I usually keep my mouth shut on these issues because the type of rant seen above is exactly what ensues. But Bob wanted to hear from everyone, so there you go. In the end, I'll just do what everyone else wants, anyway.


Today, it's 5pm somewhere

Won't be in game, gonna get my date on.

You all sound like you're starting to confuse the issues. Night vision is based off of infra red light waves. Not at all anything like heat waves. If you look up heat vision you'll see how for the most part an area will be a swirl of indistinct shapes because most parts of an environment adjust to be the ambient temperature of the environment. Then, you would see a person shaped red/orange blob moving about as a person walks across your field of vision. If that person steps in front of a hot surface then you would loose sight of them in the heat of the larger object. Insulating clothing would help their heat signature stay lower, trapping their body heat inside the clothing.

Night vision bathes an area in infra red waves and the sensors read infra red rather than visible or "white" light. That's why night vision lets you see everything clearly in a monochrome color scheme (usually green with modern technology).

Now I'm no rules lawyer and don't know which copies of Dragon Magazine say what, but I always figured that regular infravision worked like heat vision where ultravision worked as night vision goggles. This would mean that heat vision WOULD work in light, but for the most part no one would use it because it is not very clear under the best of circumstances. So when there's light, just use your eyes. Whereas night vision is ruined by white light because the wave length of white light overrides infra-red. So ultravision would NOT work around our continual light rocks.

But on the other side, even if we do it that way it can always be argued that an invisibility spell works to cloak you not only from white light, but infra red, and masks your heat signature. If you wanted to get into sonar for some reason, who's to say the spell doesn't also soften sound waves so they don't reflect back at the radar/bat?

Though if we're putting it to a vote, I'm all for just saying it's magic and lets us see perfectly in the dark.


12 December, stupid o'clock a.m.

So, it's either reeealllly late or reeealllly early, depending upon your viewpoint. Therefore, this will be short and may or may not make sense.

Sonar is sound-based, so invisibility would not work against it. I believe radar is similar in that electromagnetic waves are not fooled by a cloak of invisibility (not talking about a literal cloak, here) because there is still a solid body there. Infrared would not be fooled by invisibility because of the heat signature - unless it was an invisible skeleton, because undead give off no heat.

But just for giggles, I looked up 'night vision' on Wikipedia. Lo and behold, there is a picture of a room done as 'regular vision', and a picture done with 'active infrared'. The 'active infrared' picture does not seem to show things based on heat signature; the entire room is very clearly seen. So.

Perhaps there is "Infravision", which is like looking through night-vision goggles, and there is "Thermalvision", which is what infravision is probably supposed to be in D&D, and is based upon heat signature. I kind of like the possibility of having both (exist).

Also, I like gingerbread.



I am not sure what you mean Bob? I am the least opinionated person in the group!!



I see those points Fritz and I do agree. Might have been too hasty in avoiding radar based sight in my example. I think that I need to think over this and get more input from everyone. Fresh ideas from those that don't always comment.



Bob as far as invisible creatures being invisible to radar that doesn't make sense. I say that because according to the DMG alternate senses overcome invisibility. Smell, hearing etc...Even undead can "sense/see" invisible creatures can't they, otherwise why would you need the "Invisibility to Undead" spell? I would favor invisibilty to be useless against bats, but "Silence" spell would make you "invisible" to sonar creatures. Just like for creatures without sight (Grimlocks) overwhelming their sense of smell ("Stinking Cloud" spell) would render people invisible to them. I wouldn't think the "Invisibility" spell would work on them. "Invisibility" would overcome infravision even of the "heat sense", but someone trying to "Hide in Shadows" against the "heat sense" infravision would have a difficult time unless they had the skill/knowledge about hiding against heat sources. Therefore again I think we should keep "infravision" as a whole just simply the ability to see in the dark and not heat vision.

Fritz (I hope this makes sense as I am typing it up real fast between patients)

But this would be magical radar.

Jr. Pain

12/10 Just to head John off at the pass, bats flying around regularly bump into invisible creatures because they do not show up on their radar.



I'm sure BOB would like others input. As I was mentioned by name, I have to say I do not remember that conversation about Infravision. I agree we probably wanted to keep it simple. That has not changed.

I like your facts and angles but "Magic" can explain anything but can not be used to explain everything. The human brain, or Elf I am sure, can only handle so much input. Even in Sci-Fi games and Movies Heat Vision is always interrupted by light. The fact that it is magic light without heat sounds cool but I still can not see it working. (Pun intended) I would say it's like looking at something with a black light and a normal light, one of the effects just does not come across right. Besides if BOB accepted your logic, the next step is for heat vision to detect Invisible creatures. Or for me to create a character with Radar Vision. Hummmmmm.

I'll get back to you.


12/10/08 (or Lorie's preference 10 December 2008)

My only concern with infravision and continual light being an issue, would be how useful would a fighter (such as Tori) be without being able to see others if she's not around continual light and with other characters (drow or DragonSlayers) being close to a warm rock or other warm areas and not being able to distinguish sounds as well. The thing is, these things confuse me because we're constantly changing how things should be. I'd be happy once things are set and consistent.

As for what was said over a week ago, I can only say that I don't really say anything out of character anymore. I ask questions (mainly out of character) and that's it. As far as my in character comments, that would be as Fritz had said, only roleplay. I know that orcs (half or full) don't do too well with elves, mainly because I did some research before deciding if I wanted to play half orc or half elf. As far as the issue with a division in our party, I stand by what Fritz had said, and agree with him 100%. Now, I can start another character that wouldn't be as I have made Tori, however, that would mean no more half orc and a different personality and more time for me to actually get into the character. Which would also mean that I stay quiet for a while and hardly say anything until I get the feel for my character's abilities and personality. I have gotten used to playing Tori again, which took some time after my change with playing John's character, Kit (who I didn't do so well roleplaying because I still had my mind on Tori's personality and it faded when I had to play Tori again).

As to why it took me a while to read the site and respond to it, I've been awfully busy in real life, and I thought I'd be playing this week for sure, turns out as iffy as last week. I know I'll be able to get back into the swing of things and be on regularly after the holidays and for sure once the weather warms up.



Bob thanks for answering my questions. I only have issues (if I didn't you would think I was being impersonated by an alien-may be a good thing) with your answer to the infravision question.

Again I bring up the previous vote we had years ago to keep infravision in the realm of "magic" and not bring "reality or science" into play. I remember you, me, John, Barb and Robert talking about this and deciding to play infravision the simple magic way that it allowed people to see normally in the dark. I think you will be opening up a can of worms if you utilize the scientific definition rather than just go with the recommended version from the DMG. For example if you use the "heat vision" definition then a human can be polymorphed into an elf and then gain that type of sight because it is developed by an organ rather than via magic. Another point is that even the DMG and TSR recommends not using the "heat vision" form of infravision, as well as not using "ultravision". Ultravision was basically removed in the AD&D 2nd edition rules and especially with Skills and Powers.

Next with the definition of it being "heat vision", Continual Light spells do provide light equal to full daylight, BUT it produces NO heat!!! Therefore it wouldn't affect infravision. Characters with infravision can therefore be in an area of Continual Light or look into an area and not have their vision affected. Now if light is being provided by a torch/fire, this produces heat so it would affect infravision.

I know this is your game but I would like to suggest that we put the definition of infravision up to a player vote. I have no problem accepting your decision but would be interested in how others feel.

Fritz (I may have more to say but work is calling now-break over)


To catch up on the topics.

Very glad to see everyone talking about playing styles and how each person's contributions can be better appreciated. I am happy that we have good players that can operate outside of their characters to accomplish things together.

Topics that Fritz and others asked about.

Tracking - does help but if you are not a ranger you have severe penalties. Plus tracking over rock is much harder than through the forest. The best use for tracking is when you have a trail outdoors and you are following it. In your current situation in the Underdark it will be of limited use, but still relevant sometimes.

Observation - allows you to find things that are out of the ordinary when you are not paying direct attention or to help give a bonus when you are concentrating on something. This is a bit subjective as to what is ordinary and what is not. Just about all the sounds you hear in the Underdark will seem strange to you for example so it would not give you any bonus to listening.

Infravision/Ultravision - Ultravision is the ability to see in low light outside. Elves have this along with several other woodland creatures. Infravision is the ability to see heat sources, typically of living things. It is not the ability to see all of the heat spectrum. Most underground races have this. Some races have both, Elves for instance. In the Underdark the ability to see vague outlines of creatures against the background cold of the rock can be good. Of course all creatures living in the Underdark know this and take precautions such as changing out clothing as it heats up, staying close to warmer rocks, etc. Also neither of these operate in any sort of other light sources. So just lighting up a torch will ruin Infravision for turns at least. Continual Light is the equivelent of bright sunlight, so it takes even longer to adjust to the abrupt change in available light sources.

One other point, remember that the radius of a light source is how far you can see out when you are in the center. It is not the same as how far the light goes. If I am standing on the far side of a cavern a half mile away I will see your continual light glowing and easily see into it to see who is inside. My infravision has also just "been blown" and will take me time to adjust. If you are traveling in front of the party outside of the radius of the light trying to keep your infravision working it will only work for a short time. As soon as something reflects that light back at you, or you turn to say something to a party member it is blown. The best use for Infravision (and has been used by the party well) is night time camp watches, or single/small groups with no other light sources present.

Sauna - This encounter area is set up to both take time and cause checks. It takes time to move across the bridge in a careful manner. The heat emanating up, as well as the fumes, creates heat that will make normal creatures sweat and grow dizzy. It takes careful work to walk across the chasm. Most dwarves or other underdark creatures would use the Slow Breathing NWP and belay with ropes. Proper precautions or very quick movement can avoid a lot of that, which you did successfully.

I am working on adding the information from the Description File to the site here so that it is available both in and out of Klooge. That and other skills that should be described such as the thief abilities.

Eventually, after I break both legs maybe, I will get everything online that I want.



I read and will put in full comments when I get the chance to them up.

I think having more naked Guys might attract some notice to our game. :)



I would like to make a suggestion after speaking with Kaz and Guy this past Friday and of course put it up for a vote amongst the party.

My suggestion is that since Guy isn't "really" a henchman but a PC that we do basically the same thing that was done with Vicki's character Tori. I think that so he can play a more viable roll in the party that he be bumped up to 7th level in practical experience (although his actual experience will be where it is currently at 4th level and like Tori will need to increase it before he can go beyond 7th) and he be given the associated skills, attacks, HP's, etc that are commensurate with a 7th level warrior.

I would also suggest to Guy that if this is agreed upon by the group that although he is going to specialize in axe that he take some points in polearms so that he can use the awesome polearm we have in the party pack (Reptile Bane +1/+3 vs all forms of reptiles), till we can get him an appropriate axe. Not just because we have this nice magic item but also that combined with Anterias' skill as a dwarven defender in passages ways that are narrow he will be able to attack from behind Anterias without penalty. Think of it like the move "300", except you aren't half nude and don't speak with an Australian accent.



John the only "party items" I have divided up and given to Paul were mage only scrolls and potions. Nobody else currently in the party can use them anyway. That way when you do join us, it will be a given that you have them physically in your possession to use at any moment.

Bob I do have a very important question that needs to be clarified. It was my understanding that years ago we decided that "Infravision" was the ability to see in the dark for the distance each character had (i.e. 30 ft, 60 ft, 90 ft etc), not just "heat vision". We based this on several Dragon Magazine descriptions, AD&D 2nd edition rules, Dungeoneers Survival Guide and a group vote. In our last game you changed it to strictly heat vision. Would you please clarify this because it is an important issue given that half of our party has infravision and the other half doesn't. It will really affect how we accomplish our goals within the Underdark.

I would also like for you to discuss the issue of sound and hearing. In issue #227 of Dragon Magazine (in the section of Underdark Survival Techniques), the Dungeoneers Survival guide they speak of a thief's Noise Detection ability as being invaluable in this environment. How will you play this? What variables and factors should we all be aware of, and how will they effect our ability to detect other creatures and ambushes?

Finally (for this question and answer session) what about tracking and observation? These skills seem to be rather useless within your game at times. How do you use observation and under what circumstances will you allow this proficiency to be of benefit? If observation is of no benefit in your game then can we change it to something else? It is supposed to be a spontaneous proficiency going on all the time and not just when someone asks or rolls it. You should be telling us to roll it or rolling it for us...Heck you should have us roll it periodically for no reason during the game to scare the beegebers out of us. How about tracking? How do you limit its use and ability not only in your game but within the Underdark. A successful tracking check should give more information than just "something was here". I understand there are modifiers for terrain and time, but things such as "lizard type creature, it went in this direction, most of the prints seem to be leaving, or coming, there are many, there are few, there are 3, there are 20, it is an elf, a dwarf, an insect type creature, etc" should in the least be viable answers. If observation is of no benefit in your game then can we change it to something else?

Since we just came through the Sauna (and probably will run into something like this again) can you give us any information that we could have garnered from our experience, as well as the dwarves experience as to what we were specifically dealing with? In other words what rules were you using to determine the effect of heat on us? This way we can attempt to prepare for some variation on this again in the future.

I had all these questions (and others) during the game but didn't want to interrupt game play for it.



I would rather Paul not be holding any "party items" as I can not be counted on and I know how hard it can be on the party when someone not present has something they need. I really appreciate you all discussing things here rather then the game and understand where more people are coming from. From my point of view, I have tried to stress in and out of character that Paul has tried to take himself out of the leadership of the DragonSlayers and even out of the lime light in Gon. (I am working on a post in character for further details). And yes, Paul has shown his share of disrespect, mostly to Rave but in my limited time I hope I have shown some acceptance. There will always be a separation on numerous levels, in and out of characters. Accept it and move on. Things will change on their own.



I want to say that I haven't responded up till now to the wonderful discussion started by Lorie and Mike because I have been on call the past couple of days. Other than a few minutes to copy and paste to the Party Pack I haven't had sufficient time to devote to an adequate response to your comments. I will do so now.

Lorie it seemed to me that others were more passionate about me NOT having the Phole, therefore I left with the understanding that I wasn't in possession of it. I was more passionate about making sure ALL the items available were spread out to people who could use them then I was about my character personally possessing the Phole.

I do believe that at least the 4 of us (Mike, you, John and I) are equally concerned about the hazards we are going to face. I am glad John has decided to bring Paul as we were mage-less and that concerned me. That is why I wanted to make sure that we are outfitted to the best of our ability for this adventure. The potion I gave you all actually does give you fluency with the language as if you had learned it as a proficiency. It is permanent and can't be dispelled. You all know those languages and can use them as you see fit. I will also assume that I was able to provide Paul with the same potion and will discuss with him tonight if he joins us which languages he wishes to learn.

Although our fighters are definitely NOT quiet I think that they may be our greatest asset as they really less on their magic skills than the rest of us. This may seem contradictory to my previous statement about Paul being in the group but it isn't. I think more fighters are warranted but without magic backup we are truly in trouble. As for the issue of a male or female doing the negotiating I tend to agree with Mike. Yes we will be dealing predominately with a female dominated society but they are used to interacting with outsiders and they know that when it comes to commerce dealings they have to work with all sexes. Plus they are supra-intelligent so they will know that the surface world doesn't actually follow in their matriarchal line of thinking. I don't think males per say will need to take a back seat in the dealings with the drow. Now on that note I add that I still agree with Mike that Kylia should be the spokesperson for the group and that we should defer to her in the majority of our interactions. If you look at one of the items I gave her this week it is a potion of Human Control. This may be needed and we have no idea that we will be dealing only with elves in this matter. Let Lorie/Kylia do all the talking but of course we can as players give OOC suggestions or even IC questions if we do it diplomatically and politically. That way we don't have to inhibit others from participating in the game. Let's keep in mind that this is still a game and not real life so unless someone actually pisses Bob off to push him to a TPK he probably will be somewhat lenient with how conversations go so that all can participate.

Your frustration actually is my frustration as well. I have mentioned to Bob on the side on numerous occasions that some of the bickering and squabbling is going beyond roleplaying at times. I have spoken in Ventrilo with Vicki and I know she is only roleplaying but she has wondered if others were doing the same. Now I know that I have made comments against Anterias as a roleplay with Rave. I do feel it is all roleplay as Mike and I converse on the side and on phone together and I know I don't have any animosity in the least towards him and it doesn't appear he has any with me. But as you stated since we aren't actually "talking" with each other the "jokes" and "kidding around" and overall "emotion" we would portray to each other gets missed. I would suggest that from here on out we limiting those types of comments to bars and pubs when we are clearly in a joking/drinking roleplay situation. No snide comments or derogatory comments in any other situation be accepted. This goes for me and everyone. Now I will also say that I disagree with Mike on one aspect. As far as roleplaying is concerned the "Dragon Slayers" really haven't made anyone else feel welcome. This is a real problem as well. I don't feel my character has been accepted into the DS'ers and I know Vicki feels the same way. Some of the negative feelings and animosity stems from this and it would be helpful to group and player unity if you all would treat us or make us feel like we are part of the group. This may not be your intention, but it is coming across this way. As far as us talking about the "Guild", Mike you do push and stress the fact that your characters are loyal to "Greenborough" and that it is your "guild" or "home". John does the same with Gon, and Lorie with Roadhaven. So if the rest of us aren't considered a part of the DS'ers then what is wrong with us identifying the fact that we have a home in Rivertown, or that we work for Sebrina? We created in our histories some details to give us links to the DS'ers so our characters would be accepted. So far it hasn't happened, therefore they will continue to look at themselves as separate from the group until you all make it official that we are a part of the DS'ers. This trully may not have been your intention to make our characters feel segregated, but it has come across that way from the "core" Dragon Slayers, to the rest of us. I would love to feel a part of the group and play my character as such. I just don't get that vibe in the game. Also one other aspect of this is the "negative" comments made just in general. I know that people like to say things like "kill them all", "Burn the town down", and other things during the game out of character. But what they don't realize is that for the rest of us it magnifies the problems with KloOge. By this I mean - if we are discussing how to deal with a situation and "side comments" overwhelm the chat room then a lot of skipping suddenly occurs. It then becomes difficult to go back and read what is "real gaming" and what is "fake gaming". I don't want to inhibit others ability to have fun and be themselves, but halfway through the game I have to clear my chat history just to be able to keep up with what is going on. I just ask as you have Lorie that we we start playing if we all could keep it to a minimum...and this includes me. I know I am one of the worst at this problem.

As far as "side chats" and "rule debates" I really try to keep it simple. I give my opinion on a rule, we always have been allowed to and I try and find proof to back it up. BUT I ALWAYS defer to Bob's ruling. Now I think there are times (and I remember recently this being the biggest one) is that it wasn't an issue with the rules but that the game definition file was messed up. If that is wrong then the entire game is screwed. It wasn't that I was debating a ruling by Bob but if KloOge is deranged as badly as it was I felt I had to make Bob realize it. When I did that is when Bob understood the need to stop the game and fix the problem. If you only realized the number of hours I have spent outside the game fixing the KloOge disasters you would be amazed I have time to sleep at all. I truly remember in the past how I would take hours away from the game with my "rule Lawyering". I have made a conscious effort to the point that I have a "post it note" on my computer telling me not to debate issues longer than 10 min, then let it go (the note reads "Let it go after 10 PLEASE!!")

As to passing magic items out to only our "Main" characters I am confused as to which hirelings or henchmen have been given any magic items, other than possibly Valgar and Anterias. Anterias was created by Mike and I to fill a gap in our group that we had in the past (aka tank), and since Mike plays him so often I never considered him an alternate. Also Valgar is Guy's character even though he his Moirra's henchman so I considered him a main PC as well. Now on that same note I have to bring up something Kaz said in the past...I to consider EVERY character I play as my main character. I don't differentiate them in my mind or in the game. They are all important to me and I have devoted alot of myself to creating a history and personality for them. I don't think of them fodder as others might think of their henchmen.

Finally I love it when John, Christy, and Hans are in the game as well as Beth, Vicki, Guy and Kaz. I miss them when they aren't there and I wish that life's responsibilities didn't keep them from playing. I empathize with them not from a parental point, but my responsibilities as a physician often keep me on the phone during a game or even caused me not to show up or show up very late.

I hope in my heart that this brings us all closer together as friends and roleplayers in the game. I think that Lorie is right in bringing up these issues and that if we can communicate better and understand each other more, then we will all be able to make the adjustments we need to make the majority of our time together fun and adventurous.



For tonight, I'm assuming that we are starting off with all the dwarves and their drow captive, moving down the quicker, but more dangerous paths to the underdark city. If this is not the case, I'd like to get any confusion resolved quickly. I don't enjoy the recent trend of taking an hour to remember where we were and getting started again.

And as no one replied, I'm going to hope that we all agree to a unified front with Kylia as our matriarch. This is really quite possibly going to be worse than when we went into Hell and I'd like to come out the other end alive.


12/3/08 (I thumb my nose at Lorie's Euro date ((and fart in it's general direction)))

The correct answer Fritz is: Who cares? In a city of drow, they all deserve to burn, burn, burn, burn in a ring of fire. Or burn baby burn. Just so long as we're standing outside the fire and we can always say that we didn't start the fire. But rest assured, if we do our job right, they'll all be burn, burn, burning for you. Feel free to continue to add burning song lyrics, so long as they have nothing to do with the burning when you pee. That's just gross. But on a serious note, we'll probably have a bit of a rough time finding him. We should ask what's her face for as detailed a description as we can get before we go. I have a feeling though that if he wanted to attack us like he did, and we come tromping through the underdark into his town, we won't have so hard a time finding him. As for Lorie's Post: The idea that the drow are a female led society shouldn't be that big of a deal with us, really. We've been a female led group since I started playing. But also, for those not in the know, just because you may have a female character, you shouldn't ever forget that outsiders (us) are always considered lower than drow males. Unless we really do want to kill every drow we come across, we need to play diplomacy here. We need to play this right or we all re-roll level 1 characters because of a party wipe. I think that IC we need to all agree to let Kylia be our leader. Any party division will be perceived as weakness and the drow will eat us for breakfast. Outspoken characters are going to have to curb their mouths and defer things to Kylia. Don't question her decisions openly in public. Whisper to her if you need to say something when speaking with the drow.

As for the personal/party divisions I'm getting tired of it, too. But I will say this out in public: I won't stand for rudeness to me or my characters. When one of my people walk in and get insulted, they will push back. If I get talked down to or insulted no matter how subtly, I will push back. All that has to happen is some respect. I tend to ignore people I don't like, and I won't take my characters out of their way to talk to yours if that's where the problem lies. If you say or do something in game that doesn't mesh with the group or my character's alignment/views, then go ahead and defend your position, but leave the rudeness at home.

I do and always will play my characters to the hilt and right now I run an elf in charge of his own city and his family. They will not take anyone's shit. In the party, it's getting tiresome of hearing about "the guild" and "the Rivertowners". The name of the group is the Dragon Slayers. If you don't want to be a part of the Dragon Slayers, there's the door. I don't believe I play my characters as "The Greenborough Army." They are DS'ers and will always be DS'ers. Kylia and Paul (when he shows. ;P ) are the leaders of the group and have always been since I've played. If there's a problem with that we need to deal with it because a house divided cannot stand and I don't feel like having Fin and Ant killed in the underdark because people are being stupid, standoffish, and/or undermining of the group as a whole.


3 December 2008

Fritz -- I am fine with your additions to the party pack, please ensure they are split between the two holding devices to ensure that if we lose one, we don't lose it all. I do agree we'll need to confirm who is carrying the Scroll of Shelter. I believe, unless I misunderstood you on Friday evening, Fritz, you were carrying the Portable Hole, since you were passionate about having it, but I'm not sure why you are now claiming that you don't know who has it. It's very clear to at least me that storage items don't go well together, so while the reminders have been nice, it should be abundantly clear, even to those who don't know D&D rules.

I also agree that the task ahead and adventure ahead is going to be extremely difficult and daunting Not many of our characters (based on what I've seen and know) have ever seen drow or are familiar with them. Kylia's had limited dealings with them via Thedd and a few other encounters, but, she's aware of only a few of the true challenges ahead, she's heard tales, but... I know she's just not sure what's ahead (aside from deaths, which are normal for her).

I'd like to spend a few moments discussing my thoughts and insight in to what's ahead -- for those of you who still aren't familiar with D&D or the rules of the road in the Underdark. This might be interesting. Outside of the game, I've participated in Underdark campaigns as well as done a lot of reading of the Underdark. I get the sheer sense of overconfidence from the group that I think is going to be a problem. If it's in-character hubris that's fine; however, if you are thinking this campaign is going to be a breeze -- please reconsider now.

I would expect we're going to lose our access to magical items, spells, natural abilities, etc. via the creatures / monsters we're going to encounter. If you're debating bringing a henchman or low-level underling to help you carry something, please rethink your strategy unless they are disposable and you're not concerned if they live or die. We're going to have a language barrier -- even with the spell that Fritz used on us -- because we aren't fluent, we are going to know casual conversation - no slang and most certainly, no hand signals, which Drow are well-known for using over language. I can’t imagine a spell (aside from drow magic which is verboten) that would give us that ability.

We're loud and humanoid... we're going to advertise that we're coming well in advance that we're there and it's going to be a problem, even our thieves are going to be off balance - no to mention the continual darkness we're going to be subjected to surviving in - it can play tricks on characters with infravision. So, the disadvantage here is obvious - armor, unfamiliarity with the geography, monsters, etc. Think of us as the American tourists in Italy -- we will stick out, no matter how hard we try. Unfortunately, you warrior / paladin types with plate mail, sadly, I’m really talking to you. :O)

While the dark gnomes and mind flayers tend to favor male leadership, the drow are purely female oriented. Men aren't respected or treated equal... that's something that we're going to have to be mindful about as we get closer to them. The female prisoner is going to be a good test for that. I know this alone could be a challenge for the party, and Kylia has had encounters where she had to “know her place” and I struggled with it. No lie.

Okay, next topic: I'd also like to take a moment to vent on the apparent division that's gone on in the party both “in and out of character” and express my LOUD frustration about it. If you want to play this way, I have to say that it's a major departure from the way the parties have been in the more than 10 years that I've actively been a part of the group and that it's challenging as a person and character. Having friendly "jabs" at party members is one thing but the current level of attacks and obvious attempts at splitting the party is something else. I am not feeling anything friendly right now between Mike and Vicky – “in character or out”. I have spoken to Mike on this and I understand where he's coming from. That happens sometimes, people just don't get along, but when it's affecting the game for the rest of us, it's time to reconsider. Perhaps Vicky and Mike don't realize that the other is "kidding", perhaps it's not intended the way it's taken (since the internet doesn't show emotion well), but it's too much. I am tired of sitting through fights that sound like the ones I have to negotiate during with the week with my 8 and 4 year old.

I am also a bit frustrated with the "side chats" and rule “debates” that are derailing the game. Can we keep those confined to IMs or board discussions? I know that BOB doesn’t always get it right the first time… I know Klooge has updates that impact the game, but let’s try and be a bit more conscious of how we deal with these.

I have chosen to not speak up when issues like these (in addition) to the continual rule debates derail the 4 hours a week that I choose to spend with my friends, but the time has come when I'd like to express my frustration and look to the group for creative solutions to these issues. By not speaking, I have probably allowed these problems to escalate to the point where I'm this frustrated. I acknowledge my part in this and do want to work with everyone to resolve and get the game back on track.

Moving right along on my venting: I think some people seem to remember the passing out of magic items differently than I do, because, I clearly remember some of us asking some others to think of MAIN characters versus henchmen before divvying up the loot, but, then again, maybe I remember wrong, wouldn't be the first or last time, but let’s remember we’re a GROUP and none of us are in this together. Please see the above rant about party harmony / unity.

Finally: Hans, Christy, John -- I know real life has kept you away; our kids are all at an age where they have stuff going on. I've been lucky that a lot of Kristen and Alyssa events are not on Fridays (yet). Obviously, we miss you and need your experience and insight as we move forward. You've been in the campaign surely longer than I have and guidance is always appreciated on my part. So, please come back to us when you can.



Awesome John.

I added those I could think of to Cast of Characters. Yes it was mentioned several times that the PHole can't go in the Scroll of Shelter. Hopefully Bob remembers that. At this time we don't know who is carrying the Phole and who has the Scroll of Shelter. It probably will become important in the middle of combat so that needs to be decided upon by the powers that be. If we knew a bit better what some of the other characters had such as magic weapons and armor that would help.

Does Valgar or Percival need anything in particular? How about Tori, Moirra and Arilyn? I gave Moirra the Bracers so her AC is much better than it used to be which will be a big boon in the Underdark. Tori now has a +2 dagger which is her most magic weapon.

Oh one last thing. Did anyone else besides Vicki and I realize how difficult it is going to be to isolate our "dark skinned man" in a city full of drow? Do we even know he is a dark "skinned" elf? How do we know he isn't a dark "skinned" human?



Actual I am interested and will try to poke my head in when I can. With all the concern with the party pack I think we might want to run down the party here, like we did for Orcs with Pointy Ears. Cast of Characters

And those who are concerned with the Party Pack you do know it has a portable hole inside the scroll of shelter. Someone might want to make sure that does not happen in the game.


12/1/08 Greetings all. Well I believe we are at the start of what is truly going to be a fun and exciting adventure in the Underdark. I was reviewing things with Bob and investigating the new def file when I came across the Roadhaven Treasury!!! I missed this during the game and asked Bob if I could present to the group the option of adding more things. He told me to do so online here and see what people thought.

There are a lot of magic items, scrolls, and potions that could be used by individuals within the group that I think would be very beneficial and are wasting away sitting in a vault. Also I think it would be best if people had these listed directly on their character sheets (we can put where they came from) that way we won't have to have someone digging in the PHole, or the Scroll of Shelter to get these items in the middle of battle. We have fighters and clerics in the group that could improve their combat and spell casting potential if we divided up some of these items. I am going to list the items I think should be added to our current party pack and split up amongst different individuals. I am not listing who should get what item (that can wait until it is agreed upon to bring these), but I think Kaz, Guy, Christy, Hans, Beth, Barb and Vicki's characters all could really use these items.

Scrolls: Cure Minor wounds, Hold Poison, Efficacious Monster Ward, Cure Serious, Free Action, Protection from Evil, Protection from Elemental Attack, Sunrise.

Potions: 2 x Healing, 2 x Invisibility, Acid Resistance, Oil of Acid Resistance, Phasing, Flying, Heroism.

Wands: Negation, Secret Door and Trap Location

Rings: Free Action, Water Breathing, Protection +1, Spell Storing (Dimension Door)

Armor: +2 Plate

Monies: Gems, Jewelry, Precious Stones (Use for barter and exchange in the Underdark)

Please tell me what you think. I do feel it would make all the characters better able to handle the rigors we could face in the underdark.

Also John I hope you are planning on joining us soon. I know your expertise would be invaluable.



Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

Sadly no. That is part of that map package I gave you a while back? There is not one definitive map that shows the Great Mountains and the western edges of Hallstatt, nor one that has the full Celtic World all in one spot. One day that will all be done. I am actually putting together all the notes I can on Southeast Terraguard and the Wolfspack / Roadhaven area for the next Dragonslayer Era after Trade Wars.

Roadhaven is at best a couple week journey from Hallstatt (they are on opposite sides of the mountains) and remember this is late winter/early spring. So some flooding, landslides, etc. will happen in the mountains. There are some large scale maps that show Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake) to get a feel for Semphar to Hallstatt etc. For a general idea picture it being hundreds of miles at a minimum.

The map that is linked to in Deep Dark Dangerous is fully detailed on the site. If there is a place name on the map the basic description is there. (at least I think I covered all of them) I am working on each map section that way, ensuring that what ever you see you can find on the site somewhere else as well.

One reason the map has not been important as much as me knowing where everything is located is the groups 'blipping' around through the pools and teleports. I would think that is the current plan as well. Pool over to the Mountains of Copper using a place that Chohen can describe to you. Then walking once there. No point in horses as you can't use them underground.



Bob could you possibly put up a map that shows Roadhaven in respect to where we have to go in the Mountains of Copper?



Mentor and Val are still quite a ways off from returning to the group. There is a Calendar Events you can see when logged in, but the current date is 13-11-1259 (the day everyone gathers back in Roadhaven after Magic of Music) and Mentor/Val are not due back after training until 22-2-1260. That counts the fast travel times and shortened training. Rhys and Ariella are due back in Roadhaven on 6-1-1260 so they are out of the next adventure also.

The group does have all the magic items that Bruno and Octavia McFee had, but not her spell books.

Taking over the Blue Griffon's castle would be tricky. The rulers in Nathoud would have something to say about it, Aff (the last remaining member of the group) would have something to say about it. (Hallstatt is actually south of there). Not saying it can't be done, but it would be difficult. It would definitely have to wait until after Trade Wars is over.

The next session should be interesting, I am sure people still want to ask questions do research and do at least the minimal planning before leaving for the Mountains of Copper and trying to find guides to take you down into that 'hive of villainy and scum'. I personally think this is a bigger challenge than the Fire Giants were.



I don't know how Bob will feel about this as far as his game world is concerned, but I thought I would at least like to ask the rest of the group how they feel. I was thinking of taking over Gangwolf's home since it is now abandoned. Of course I would have to get his friends permission. It is on the opposite side of the mountains between Lorie's Keep and Semphar where my characters come from. Also it might also be good to have a presence in Halstatt. What do you all think? Mike, John, Lorie? Give me your opinion. My character is high enough level to have his own demesne. I am not going to start a guild yet (esp since I still work for Barb), and not really thinking about it. It would good to have another place to hang my hat besides Roadhaven, Rivertown.



I also have a couple of characters that can help us out in the underdark if people are interested. Specifically Mentor and his brother Val'Iant.



Octavia is so used to using and manipulating people and was so upset about being used by Ramone that I have a good way to punish her. I can transform her into a living zombie for 2-5 days. She isn't a real undead.

This potion can turn a normal person into a zombie for 1d4+l days. It is colorless, odorless,and tasteless, making it easy to slip into food or drink. The potion can be attuned to a single master if that person stirs the potion with a finger prior to giving it to the victim. Once consumed, the person becomes mentally like a zombie. The body is still alive, but he or she does nothing without explicit orders. If the potion was stirred, then the zombie obeys only that person, otherwise the new zombie obeys any order. The victim does not even eat or sleep unless commanded. He or she cannot feel pain and is immune to sleep and charm spells, just like a zombie. In combat, hit points and saving throw values are retained, but THACO and damage are the same as a normal zombie. The character is still affected by physical damage and even poison. The person can be turned just like a zombie, but cannot be destroyed. The character's Intelligence drops to 3, and he or she loses all self-motivation and will-power. Movement rate drops to 6. The character is effectively a sluggish, mindless automaton. Spell casting is out of the question. The potion also acts like a truth serum; the character answers all questions to the best of his or her ability.

If you think this would be an initial fitting punishment that can be repeated periodically to her when I am not otherwise occupied then tell me. It would also be a good way to initially keep her under control for Wilson while we are gone.

Did we get her spell book?



It was one of the easiest battles we have ever been in. Rather boring actually. Once we fixed KloOge it took 1 round to finish off the fighter and 1 round to finish off Mercedes.


Duh... let me think about that question for like 2 seconds.. this last Klooge update is kicking my computers butt! Barb

11/23/08 I hope it can be relativity easy to assume someone from Roadhaven would get word to Paul that there may be some Drow or underdark connection to the current adventure. THAT would certainly get his attention. (Maybe even mine) I have not read all I have should but maybe that will make for better role playing. Tell me honestly, what has been more challenging, the Klooge updates or the high level bad guys and girl.



Thanks John!!! Your knowledge and input as always is invaluable. I vaguely remember this fight. I believe it was the last one I was involved in before I moved to Tn. It was one of those times we discussed the psionicist island that Bob had mentioned before. I would consider making another Bladesinger (just kidding Bob)but we have Anterias so that isn't needed. With such an incredible fighting machine we don't need the finesse that Almarin provided. A character that doesn't need components or gestures to cast spells can be quite daunting. I had created one in Marco's game and it was nice.


The first fight with Oz and his group was the one started when Rob's character was uncharacteristically cocky and said something like "Make us" The is the battle I spoke of when Darian Lambert died. BOB was tired of us using Stone Skins so much and put it on some NPC. The one NPC who dies was the two weapon fighter that killed Darian. I know that Fritz and his character was one the the few reasons we did not all die and that Robert's character who was in the back was believed to be the leader of the DS after that point. One particular NPC, though I do not know if it is Oz himself, could cast priest spells without any components, it made it hard to tell who was casting.



There are several references to old things on the site already and more to come. As I get caught up on adventure planning and on KloOge programing I am adding more of the old story arcs. I particularly want to add ones where I have the adventure notes for, so that I can help spur more thoughts like this.



Ozymandius!! Do any of you who took part in the adventures with this person remember anything about him other than what Bob has listed? Remember he has tied some of this adventure to the Island Kingdoms. I was reviewing the Dragonslayer Eras and came across several references of this person. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't a part of this whole thing as well. Remember Bob let slip once he had thrown hints throughout this web site. Anyway if you all can recall what this guy was all about maybe we can do some research on him after we deal with the fight tonight. Maybe even bring him up. I am curious to know why a cleric of a good god is out to kill us (well the Dragonslayers anyway). I am fairly certain that once this cleric busts loose with her spells things are gonna get real hairy.



Sure Bob, it did nothing you can see... just like the last one. Which as it turns out totally screwed up our rolls. And tell whoever it is that made this thing up to put in the stupid menu roll options again. Not everyone likes the dice roller pane. Stupid Klooge.



Fritz, I do not want to redo any of the attacks. We lived with the numbers that way for several sessions, and things are just going to have to stay that way. We can fix them now for the rest of this combat and beyond however.

There is also an update to KloOge to test out. I did download and run it, nothing in our campaign seems to have changed that I could see. Further testing with combat and such is needed of course.



Hey Bob I know this may seem like a radical idea but I honestly don't think it would mess up the current game flow. I suggest that since the attacks were off for all the PC's and Bruno, that we rewind the game to the point where Bruno attacks Antarias. Reviewing the chat log and it looks like it would have been a different scenario for you and the group as a whole. The Harpies attacks won't change because they don't have any modifiers. I would also suggest you leave the saves vs their songs the same so as not to confuse anyone. We would just not let player knowledge change that part of our actions.

Also I will try and call you tonight to log on for about an hour to work on everyone's character sheets if KloOge will be available. I will call you ahead of time to set up the appropriate password etc...


10/30 There is no plan for adventuring this next session because of Halloween. Everyone except myself has some sort of plan for that night. I will be online and I plan on working on the game, DEF files, Data files, character sheets, etc. Anyone who does want to log in to help out is welcome, I am sure there can be some fun roleplaying with other characters etc. Then we pick up again next week with the group having just moved inside of the castle.



Wow I just read last weeks adventure log and it looks like the ladies had a really fun night without the men!! I hope this doesn't become a habit 8*)

So if I am to understand the last few lines of the night Bob you aren't planning on us adventuring any this Friday? Is there a specific reason for this? To few players? Not enough big guns?





Sad news to some, happy to others I suppose, but I will not be in game for the next two weeks. I got free tickets to this Friday's Panther's game where I will be wearing a Lightning jersey and cheering for whoever the panthers are playing against, and on Halloween I will be at a costume party getting drunk so I can regret it on the next day when I will most likely be moving into a new apartment.

On a side note: anyone who wants to travel back to DragonSlayer HQ on the 1st can have the privilege, nay the honor, of moving my furniture from one end of town to the other. Free pizza and beer for all dumb-I mean great enough to help!



John you are absolutely correct I haven't been keeping up with the site enough. I again apologize for the misunderstanding about your character situation. Have you given thought to maybe just pulling our adventures out of the Dragonslayers and creating a new group. They could still be based on some of the current characters but have no active adventuring ties with the DS? What kind of character are you considering playing this time? I know we have relied heavily recently on your character's skills as well as your player skills to keep the game moving and and us alive. For that I am grateful. I know I have been showing up late in the game and it is a difficult thing for me now with my 45min-1 hour drive every night to be available with patient responsibilities as well. Hopefully when I have a house in Naples that isn't so far from work, you will be able to rely on me as much as I have relied on you.


10/17 I can see where you are coming from John. It just so happens that Paul et al going back to the Protectorate fits in the story line as well here. Let the rest of the group tackle Movement III and Movement IV of the Magic of Music adventure, you can step back and recharge. You can also continue with your plans for those characters, work on details of home that you want to etc.

I think that the next two Movements will take at least 4 to 6 weeks combined (looking at finishing this story arc end of Nov/early Dec). Perhaps setting up another form of the Paul Pager where they can at least contact you somehow, or I guess they could always hope for water to be able to 'pool' back to Roadhaven and find him that way.

10/17 8:00 am

Fritz, I have seriously considered retiring my characters. If you read the site enough, you might see I have continued Paul's story down that line. The main reason why I have not is that I am still able to play him mostly as I vision him and chasing some one around the world while all our lands are unprotected is not something I (as Paul) would do. If things change, things change. Maybe part of the issue is the pressure to perform the last few weeks. I will let you and the rest of the part get to the next part of the adventure and take (at least) a week off and maybe things will change.




Sorry I haven't been able to check the communication page in awhile, but I am a bit disturbed to see talk of ending this adventure halfway through (if even that far). I am enjoying it and I want to see where Bob is going to take it and how everything ties together. Now none of my characters are officially Dragonslayers, but that is just a technicality as far as gaming is concerned. Frankly if John's characters as "Dragonslayers" aren't interested in the adventure then John should retire them and create characters with which he will be interested in adventuring. This habit within the group of never finishing a campaign plot or even derailing it when they feel like it is getting old. It always seems to be tied to an excuse "As a Dragonslayer I wouldn't be interested in bothering with it". Geez are the "Dragonslayers" themselves such gifts to the world of AD&D that we can't dump them and move on when a great plot story is unfolding? "Roleplaying" is one thing but "Derailing" is another and that to me is what is disruptive at this time. For example Mike and I roleplayed the conflict between Rave and Anterias over killing the Troll Spectres but that had nothing to do with Mike and myself. We chit-chatted back and forth as a side conflict but it was between the characters and the adventure continues. What I am reading on the other hand is suggesting we STOP everything that is happening and forgo the detail and work Bob has put into the game because someone doesn't "feel like playing".

Now I may be wrong and I may be misreading what John is saying. If so I apologize enthusiastically towards him for my misconception of what he has stated. I respect and like John tremendously and I am sure after all these years he is well aware of my deep feelings for him as more than a simple friend or acquaintance (I hope that doesn't sound as gay as it reads). I play the game in part to hear in my minds eye his voice giving gaming suggestions and roleplaying his characters. I just don't want to come into the game on Friday and find we spend 4 hours debating whether or not we are going to finish the adventure and waste my time. I struggle and stress EVERY Friday to get home in time to play and it will disappoint me greatly if we spend the majority of that time trying NOT to adventure. Barb is rejoining the game and trying to get a feel for adventuring again, and I am sure she won't be looking forward to logging on and doing nothing but watch us debate back and forth whether or not we are going to continue to play this particular adventure. I would hope that maybe some of the group that wants to "roleplay" strictly how a "Dragonslayer" would respond to the current adventure, will this time take into account how the rest of us as gamers would prefer to just play. I would hope they would be willing to go on with the current campaign theme and "bend" their strict ideologies a bit so the rest of us can enjoy the brief time we have together online. If they wish to be purest then I suggest since we really do want to all play together as friends, retire your characters and create new ones that will be willing to adventure freely just for the sake of adventuring.

I don't say this to alienate or disenfranchise anyone but to hopefully keep the collegial atmosphere of the game going. I am really enjoying playing with EVERYONE. I have been truly impressed with some of the brilliant ideas John and the others have come up with during these series of adventures, as well as some memorable roleplaying moments. I am interested in the story line and want to see what Bob has in store for us in the future.



I personally don't think we should stop this hunt, considering most of the time, once not tracking this person, she'll probably go back to her old ways. I hope that we can catch her, since there has now been some delay in tracking her. I'm not sure about killing her, but at least track her and find out why she's doing what she's doing. Of course, my character is likely to just want to kill anything and everything that angers her. What stops her from killing Dragonslayers is probably the fact that she still has use for them.


She provided the Elves with some amulets that blamed the DragonSlayers for the elves attacks. Then she stole a magic item that allowed a hidden group of elves to be reviled and she attacked those elves. Seems she has a thing against elves and if her path is any indication, she is well out of our sphere of concern. I have a hard time seeing that as attacking the DragonSlayers. John

You of course can do what you want John. But this villain was attacking the Dragonslayers up until the group started after her. The group was behind her by only a day or two at one point. BOB

10/10 6:15

After whatever combat happens tonight, I will most likely log off, what ever time it is. As far as the adventure, I do not think I or my characters will pursue it or the woman behind it. She has done her damage and moved on, she is not attacking the DS anymore. She is clearly Chaotic and not necessary Evil. We could spend the rest of our days correcting her actions and the only way I see stopping it is to kill her and I do not kill practical jokers or pain in the A$$es. If I did that I would have killed a few more fellow DSers.



Most spells only require the same religion so Celtic would be appropriate. The individual spells sometimes require the same god, or similar language.

As to the other deaths, I do want to hear from Fritz and Hans in particular. Christy was actually running one of John's characters so I would lend weight to his desires.

If you are successful in killing the spectres, (if not reverse the whole mess) then reincarnating those that want to come back seems reasonable.



When you say "belongs to the same religion", do you mean "follower of the same god", or merely someone else who worships within the Celtic pantheon? I'm assuming "follower of the same god" but, if you merely refer to Celtic, then Rhys worships a Celtic god.


10/7 We actual have an item that allows someone of a particular religion that Kylia & Khan belongs to undo an event that they have seen. If anyone upstairs belonged to the same religion, say Kylia's henchperson er henchlady?, maybe we can undo this whole thing. Somehow I am not sure she is the same religion.



Okay, so I'd like to hear from Fritz, Christy, and Hans, as they have also lost characters. If they do not want to lose their characters, does John still wish to leave Khan dead?

Also, interesting comment that you made, Mike, because I have wondered if we could use a wish to turn back the clock. If so, please remember that we do have an Efreeti wish, and I think that an Efreeti would be powerful enough to accomplish what we want. Of course, I'm not positive of that, but I'm throwing it out there for you all to say yay or nay to.



The wish idea by Mike would have worked, but not so many days later. The reason for a wish and a res would be that the Res only works to resurrect the body. Part of turning into an undead is the changing of the body. A very carefully worded wish would be powerful enough to do both things most likely, but a res only will not work.



Why would we need a res and wish Bob? A wish should be enough to get them back, or a res. Seems silly to use both. For that matter, if we move fast enough a limited wish can get the characters back. We did use one in the past to change an event in time so that Elandar didn't get his heart ripped out by that demon in the floating castle. We could say that we change an event so that the trapdoor never got opened by the lowbies and they don't go down and die. But if everyone is willing to move on, fine enough.


10/6 I am ready to move on with the lost of any character. While this combat was clearly over our collective heads, all of my character have run their course and if any more of them die, they will stay dead. But thanks for your offer.


10/6 That is a good discussion to have Mike. For the most part the only way to get those characters back will be to kill them as spectres, then have then Reincarnated. Raise Dead will not work with the remains even if dead. Not sure if Resurrection would either, without a Wish to go along with it. At least you do have a good in with several Celtic priesthoods now, so finding someone to cast Reincarnate will not be too hard. Then again the lead characters need to decide on just how much you will go through for the lower level people. Not everyone needs or likely should be brought back.

The group knows they need to get into that basement to find the clues on what actually happened, maybe even try to talk to that lead Spectre to get info out of him.



John, after the last game, how badly do you want to get Khan back? I know we're about to fight him, but we might use any leftover spectre bits for a res or find a wish in one of the corners of the Keep's cellar?

I'd go on a quest for a wish or resurrection for you if you want, or if you're content to just plan a funeral for a troll. Would a funeral pyre be inappropriate? Or maybe we can reincarnate him again. Who knows what he'll pop up as.



This is not a complaint, this is not a complaint. This is an observation, a lesson for newer players and non relatives, another of my rants. See Rules Rants This is more of a BOB Rant



Hokay, so I've got some thoughts after last week's debacle part deux: First off, everyone remembers that the report talked about the rocks rising up and attacking, right? Not sure how many necros dabble in earth magic, but I'm guessing that this guy wasn't the one causing the problems on the road. Not to mention he's kinda corpsified.

That said, there IS something going on in here even if it's just that stupid trap and a couple of monsters, and since we're here we might as well clear it out and make the protectorate that much safer. Also, BOB probably wouldn't have this all Kloogified and ready if it didn't have some sort of impact, so maybe we'll find some clues as to what the problem on the road was. Granted, BOB's clues are pretty obscure so maybe not.

As to how to do said clearing out, right now we've got a decent compliment in there. I hate to suggest a course of action that leaves people out in the cold because that's bloody boring, but at this point anyone else coming in could become a crazy party killer. Now we've got a couple warriors and more importantly, a thief on the inside. At the close of the night the map looked pretty complete. No more unexplored doors or passages. But we haven't found the source of the trap. We did find one secret door behind the tapestry in the dining room already. I think our thief should do some wall looking to see if there are any more. Kit's getting killed in the other room, but because of the self closing soundproofed doors we don't know she is. So assuming we can rescue her we've got a mystery in that room, potentially lethal.

As we go out I think Rave should go first, and Kylia/Paul ready with a hold person in case he goes bonkers. Then when he's outside the rest of us can rush out all at once, he entangles us all and releases us as we're found to be not crazy or time out on the crazy spell.

That said, I also thought up a Plan B. We grab Wilson, he empowers Kylia, she earthquakes the whole damn cave into a pile of rubble. Problem solved. Horaaaaay ::waves flags around::



Just testing to see if I really can post from skool (from John: Yes you can!)


I created a new group on Kiva for us. If anyone has used Kiva before you know how easy it is to help out others that way. There is a link to our Kiva group in the Image Sharing section.



Actually John I like the traveling and the random encounters with the adventuring. To me ALL encounters are meaningful. I feel that there should be both role playing and roll playing. I don't mind dieing as long as I have fun doing it. Combat to me is more fun at low levels than at high levels because of the added danger of death due to low hit points. I believe it is Kaz who puts it best "I Love That Sound!!", whenever the combat wave music plays. The instantaneous transportation with the magic pools actually takes a lot of the fun out of the game I think. Again this is only my opinion. I will help with the DimensionalPool later.



I want to have a separate area to discuss a Mage Tower for Paul and the possibility of moving the Dimensional Pool. If you would like to contribute, please do so here

Thank you,



I understand your feelings. My take on what has happened recently is players got bogged down with the traveling details and lack of clear direction of both the traveling and the adventuring. Yes Combat does help break up the travel and the roleplaying. This is one of the main reasons I get the Dimensional Pool to avoid the travel delay. With the follower level, combat is far more dangerous, so I would like to keep combat to meaningful encounters, so we do not die in vain.



I know that this is the area to rant as well as to communicate. This is actually a small rant as some or my rants can go. More of a micro-rant. Definitely less than a mini-rant, truly not a full blown rant. In fact it is just to point out something and to detail a bit of how I would have liked to have seen the previous few weeks of gaming go. I know we didn't use our so called "main" characters but to me I enjoy playing all my characters and the time I put into creating them makes the low level ones just as important to me as the high level ones. Anyway on to the micro-rant.

We started "Orc with Pointed Ears" in June, it is now the end of August when we continue with "The Magic of Music". Out of all those gaming we sessions we have had only 4 combat adventures in 3 sessions; wolves, orcs,(which was one session) 2 floating heads, and this final one with the spectres which ends this chapter with the big question - "Daddy are we dead yet?". Bob to move the story line along removed 2 other combat adventures that I have heard of, involving wolves and yetis. Yes I know that AD&D isn't all about fighting, but it is about a moderate amount of combat.

It is my personal feeling and I stress the words "MY PERSONAL" that with as much role playing as we have been doing recently that the game sessions have seemed a bit slow. More combat would have given us less a sense of inaction and more of one of interaction. It is not something to worry about now but maybe the next low level game we do you can keep that in mind and balance it out a bit more.


I really like John's new term 'dragonetes' for the lower level Dragonslayers that are out on this mission. If you have not found it yet, he has a nice page for the summoning rod PPPPPP.


Also, happy to voice test anything you want, I have current versions of Vent and TS. Just let me know when and where.



Hey all, just checking in to see how BOB fared at GenCon and the more-than-likely bumpy ride home via Fay. Also, hoping to hear from Fritz about how things are on his side of the coast.

FYI, I will more than likely be out 29 August and 31 October. 29 August is a Girl Scout training and 31 October is obvious (I hope) for the girls.

Other than that, hope all is well.


8/15/08 (1:10 am EDT)

If you're like me and looked at the news and updates at the last possible minute, then this might help many others. Regretfully, we won't be able to play this week as there has been issues with Bob's computer. So, we have another week to discuss the current story arc among us. I would like to have us all get together to plan things even though not everything goes as planned. That way, we have some form of strategy and at least a plan and a back-up plan. If not, well, I'll see everyone on 8/22.



I do not want anyone to feel bad about visiting the site once a week, that is all I expect of anyone to do. I appreciate the work that Vicki and others have done here. I was trying to make it clear to not only players but to visitors and players from our past that the site is growing and becoming more a part of our game every week. We are not quite to the point of being able to play through the site without being here on a Friday night yet, but people can participate that would like to and just can not log in on Fridays.

As to keeping the older versions of KloOge I would say keep the last two or three backup versions just in case. I will do my best to let everyone know if a new issue crops up in an update, but we seem to be getting mostly fixes/changes to 4th edition things now, so that does not affect our game.

And yes there are different "ethnic" varieties of Orcs just like there are Humans. I would not equate Rold's tribe to Germanic traditions but the idea is the same.



Of course, now I'll have to refer to the chat log, however, I recall John telling me as he said, but I believe I had understood what he had meant. I have been checking when I remember to. I just feel bad since I used to check this site daily and now I seem to remember to do so weekly. I can only say, "I will try to do my best to... (oh wait, that's part of the Girl Scout Promise... lol) help where I can," considering I'm now trying to learn to balance time a little more with my already busy schedule. Dang Summer...

Bob, one more clarification... What are we to do with the older version of Klooge program? Are we staying with the latest version from here on?

Another thing that just dawned on me, (I'm not sure if it would have fit in Owpet) is the tribe that Rold is in (Schorg)... Does that mean there is a German Orc Tribe?
I ask this because Schorg is a German surname.



I hope the below message did not come about because of my comment or reaction to my comment. (I mentioned to Vicki that most players only played on Friday) I did not mean to say I (or anyone) should expect people to play or otherwise participate more often. While I am no BOB I do enjoy the development and interaction. I have accepted and remind myself regularly that I write for me. Sure just about everyone wants something back, to know they are connecting; why & how do you think BOB got to where & who he is today? ;) (I am his brother, I can say that)
I also would like others to contribute to the max that they can. Only 'they' can speak for themselves and contribute how and when they choose.



copied to the email list as well

To clarify some apparent confusion:

  • We still meet on a regular basis on Friday nights, starting at 7 PM EST and ending around 11:00-11:30 PM
  • We are using the most recent version of KloOge to play
  • We have a greatly expanded website that is updated regularly that is becoming more of our game

There are several key pages that I think players and other interested people should check perhaps once a week

  • News & Updates - I update this as needed and there is a link to recently changed pages on the site
  • Player Communication - This has taken the place of this email list for the most part
  • The Current Story Arc (in this case Orcs with Pointy Ears ) - just to see what happened last session
    • some story arcs have their own Communication Thread

This DOES NOT mean that I think everyone should check the site every day. This does not mean you are committing to checking the site at any other time other than a Friday just before or during the game. Because this is a wiki it is very easy to check and make a comment in a quick 5 minute visit. Anyone who has ever been a Dragonslayer can edit the site, if you need to be reminded of the password please ask me.

Yes there is more of "check the site" comments in the game night chat. There is a Site Search feature that can help you find pages you might be interested in: places people or rules.

There is a Site Map page now to help jump to deeper links if you do not want to do a Search to find something.

There are over 1,000 user generated pages now on the site. Many of those are by me, but a growing number are not.

Everyone on this list and all Past Present & Future Dragonslayers can participate on the site. Adding in a comment about something; adding in content in the form of an NPC, Magic Item, Place in the world; reminisces about another Player or an Adventure are all greatly appreciated by me and the community.

I am very grateful for all the input from our Players so far, the editing help by everyone (and the spelling/grammar corrections as needed ). We have a very good game, and I am proud to be able to show off a bit at my upcoming trip to GenCon.

It is not my game, but OUR game.

Once a Dragonslayer Always a Dragonslayer

You don't stop playing because you grow old,
You grow old because you stop playing.




Actually it does make a difference. Cantrip can not cause 1 hit point of damage, so we can't have orison healing one point. And Mike, John and Lorie would like to use that ability for all the zero level followers and such they have in their lands. It would boost Kylia up from 30 or so priests to maybe over 100 that could do some minor healing.

Maybe we can make a list by Sphere of typical things an Priestly Power could do, similar to what is there for Cantrip?


I'm confused as to the whole thing with the orisons, however, I'm sure that it will be explained to me when the time comes that I need to know.

On the other hand, there's a lot of things I need to catch up on, as soon as I'm done moving. I'm sure there will be more for me to read at the end of my move. As for this Friday, I'm not sure what will happen as far as internet being downstairs by that time or not. I'll try to notify someone sometime before I have to move this computer. It is the last one remaining where I was, considering we both like to get online occasionally. I'll try to get this online by the end of the week again.



I will try and load the maps later thanks Bob.

For non priest characters the maximum number of orisons you can cast are 3 (same as a 0 level acolyte)and it would only heal 1 point of damage, so I don't see how it would be so much more powerful than Cantrips. We don't play 0 level characters so what we are discussing is purely theoretical to maintain a semblance of realism to the process of character development.

Oh and the changes to the site are good. Makes flow easier.



I have upgraded the Image Sharing section to allow uploads of up to 10 megs, so larger maps or pictures can be accommodated.


7/12/08 Answering as I can for earlier questions.

  • Sleeping (in Chapter 5) is correct. Characters that are asleep when a combat start get a chance to wake up on their own. If they do not and there is noise they get a bonus on the next round. If they get help (meaning shaking, etc) they can automatically wake up on the round. We do not use the Heavy Sleeper, etc character traits in the game.
  • VOIP - I added to the VOIP Thread and think that there can be some tweaks to help out everyone there
  • Maps - thank you Fritz for the help on those, we will find a way to get those over to me soon
  • Orisons - I am going to rule that Orison can not be a Non-weapon Proficiencies like cantrip?. I like the idea of zero level acolytes getting something as a magical ability to show they have been blessed by their god to do her work. But the way Orisons work in game makes them more powerful than cantrips are for Mages.

As an example, if it was a non-weapon proficiency should not be able to do more healing than the Healing proficiency. But when cast as a spell by a first level priest Orison can do exactly that.

I do like the idea as I said and think that there can be a new non-weapon proficiency that can be similar to Orisons but less powerful. In the healing sphere for example, an "postulants prayers" proficiency (have to like the alliteration) could help someone who has bed rest gain 1 extra hit point in recovery, or similar types of things. Not pure instant healing, but helping the healing process.

I know that Fritz has committed a slot for the Orison Non-weapon proficiency on one of the characters, so he can use that slot for some other proficiency, or to help create our new skill and use it for that.



Bob I need another way to send you the maps to evaluate because the map size is to big. Call me.



Happy 4th of July everybody.

Bob I did a little bit of research on sleeping and waking up ;*) If you look at the attribute "Light Sleeper", the disadvantage "Heavy Sleeper" and the "Sleep" spell, you will find that by nudging or shaking someone will awaken them and another check isn't needed to attempt to see if you wake up. Even mild prodding awakens a "Heavy Sleeper" they are just penalized 1d6 rounds before they awaken enough to participate.

I am still looking up the amount of daggers one can hold in a belt across your chest 8*}


6/25/08 2:00 am

John I agree with your point about communication and chat at the gaming table. I also agree that Bob does at times wish us to be confused, but it seems like there is quite a bit more confusion with kLoOge than when we were at the table. Also yes "chatting" is something that is done every where, but when it is at the table people are interacting with each other and they don't feel like everything is boring and bogging down quite as much as they do in kLoOge. Reading through the past 4 game chat logs extensively I was really able to pick that up several times from everyone. I recall that everyone complained in every gaming session about the pace of the game as well as their confusion as to what was going on as well as what was said. I wish there was a perfect answer to this dilemma but I sure don't know what it is. If it wasn't for kLoOge I wouldn't be able to play and think about Lorie and Marco...heck at this point I believe the only one who would be a regular player would be Mike, as you have family responsibilities that keep you at home and away from Bob's. The chat log allows for things like keeping and reviewing things that happen, yet it causes a lot of problems as well. A VOIP would improve a lot of communication issues yet create detailing history problems. It would be great if some of the other players besides just the 3 of us gave some input into this issue.


6/24 7:15

I agree with Fritz, in theory, but in practice it is hard. Just like when we had this many people around a table (did we ever have this many people) there was a lot of talking to clarify what was heard and repeats when someone did not hear it. BOB will always be misleading if not confusing, especially when he wants the NPC to be confusing. The chat gives us a better chance to get it right. With Vicki's point about BOB seeing all whispers, it has potential for more issues. I expect BOB will not be answering whispers not directed at him. I would bet if someone whispered to the lead talker the right question, but it was not expressed to BOB directly the same way, we may not get the answer we would have from the right question. BOB would just smile. So yes we should try and chat one NPC at a time, and few PC's in the chat. But if you feel your question was not answered, or your question not asked, ask yourself.

and then again when BOB ignores or otherwise misses the question.



We also need to keep in mind that with the updated version of Klooge, Bob can see player to player whispers, so hopefully that doesn't distract him too much. Although when whispering questions, that said person may also get the answer in a whisper or in chat before he/she would get the question out on chat. That would be confusing for everyone, in my opinion. Then again, I could just be overreacting as I've been known to do. (It's not just my character that overreacts, it's me as a person. ;))



I have started to copy from the chat logs all the communications between player characters and NPC (aka Bob's Idiots) into a summary called Orcs with Pointy Ears Mystery Trail. In doing so I have come across a few problems that I feel if we implement some changes in the way we all do things we can hopefully reduce some of the monumental confusion going on.

1). Bob needs to stop communicating to us in partial sentences or single sentences. He needs to write an entire train of thought or train of a conversation down before entering it into the chat. What happens is that by giving us half sentences or single sentences we miss a lot of what you are saying because others interrupt the conversation. Bob really needs to probably type out way in advance what he wishes to communicate (whether it be a clue, or a description of the area or a person) ahead of time and just copy and paste it in place.
2). We probably need to designate one person as spokesperson for the group when questioning Bob. He can't keep up with everyone. Also if you want to ask a question send it via whisper to the spokesperson and have him ask Bob so that Bob and the rest of us can follow the conversation easier.
3). I know this may be difficult to ask and I am one of the worst ones in the group for doing this (because like the rest of you I find Bob's monosyllabic conversations frustrating and boring), but don't interrupt with side comments and funny thoughts that don't have anything to do with the conversation at hand. Of course you can be as snide as you wish when we aren't questioning someone but during questioning sessions please be as verbose as Lorie.
4). Bob unless you wish for us to continue to be frustrated with the mystery at hand you are going to have to throw us a bone on the questioning. Remember other than myself we aren't detectives. And since we don't know what characters are going to be reliable if all of your NPC's seem unreliable we will remain clueless as to what is going on.
5). Bob/Us need to keep our conversations between one individual and the group only. If we are questioning several NPC's at the same time it will be up to Bob to realize that anyone of them can answer a question we have posed, and not just the one we directed towards. So in other words if we are questioning NPC A, B, C and D together and we ask NPC B a question that NPC D knows the answer to, don't hide the correct response from us simply because we didn't direct it specifically at NPC D. We as a group consider that we are asking all of them the same question. This will help the game move faster and be less boring and frustrating for the party.
6). If you notice in all the published adventures in which the PC's have to solve a mystery, the characters in which we have to communicate with are generally given to us in a fairly obvious clue or manner. We may not get to that person right away, but we at least are given some obvious information. Then when we find that individual to make the adventure move forward a conversation ensues between the NPC and the PC's in which the information we need is given to us without having to pull Eye-Teeth to get it. Finally even when there are truths and rumors we get a clearer detail of the information from different individuals, rather than the same individual giving us contradicting information.

I will continue to go through our chat sessions when I can and condense the information into the Orcs with Pointy Ears Mystery Trail and like John my characters will also keep a log ( Khans log, Mentor's Log ) of their assumptions and findings to hopefully condense things down even more.


6/17/08 Bob here is the definition of Cantrips and Orisons from the Unearthed Arcana and Priest Book and it includes how 0 level apprentices can cast them. Given how they are just as weak as Magic User Cantrips and are actually referred to as cantrips in the Book of Priest Spells I believe we should run them just like we do the cantrip proficiency.

The most humble of priestly spells is the orison, a brief prayer or invocation of a minor nature. Typically, priests learn a number of orisons as acolytes or students in order to hone their spell casting skills and emphasize concepts, ideals, or phrases of particular importance to the faith. Because an orison is not even on par with other 1st-level magic, a priest memorizes a number of individual orisons equal to three, plus one more per level (up to a maximum of nine) by devoting a 1st-level spell slot to orison. In other words, a 1st-level priest can memorize four orisons for one 1st-level spell slot, a 2nd-level priest can memorize five, and so on. Unlike cantrip, an orison must have a specific effect, although the priest need not decide which incantation to use until the spell is cast. Regardless of the prayer chosen, the orison's duration is never more than one round per level. Clerical cantrips, or orisons. will be included in the final volume as well.

Orisons are minor spells learned by apprentice priests during their long, rigorous, and tedious training for their calling. An aspiring priest can use one orison per day as a 0-level postulant (-2,000 XP to -1,001 XP), two orisons per day as a 0-level petitioner (-1,000 to -501), and three orisons per day as a 0-level aspirant (-500 to -1). Orisons are memorized just as are higher-level spells.

Bless Meal
Ceremony: Oath
Cure Minor Wounds

'Cleric Orisons'
Remove Pain
Restful Sleep

'Druid Orisons'
Animal Command
Bird Call
Cause Rash
Disguise Scent
Edible Plant
Elemental Shield
Find a Stray
Heal Rash
Holly Dart
Mark Path
Repel Insects
Test Soil

Cantrips are the magic spells learned and used by apprentice magic users and illusionists during their long, rigorous, and tedious training for the craft of magic-use. An aspiring magic-user or illusionist may use 1 cantrip per day as a 0-level neophyte (-2000 x.p. to -1 001 x.P.), 2 cantrips per day as a 0-level initiate (-1 000 to -501), and 3 cantrips per day as a 0-level apprentice (-500 to -1). Cantrips must be memorized just as higher-level spells are. Most cantrips are simple little spells of no great effect, so when the individual becomes a 1 st-level magic-user, the knowledge and information pertaining to these small magics are discarded in favor of the more powerful spells then available. However, a magic-user may opt to retain up to four cantrips in place of one 1st-level spell. This assumes that the magic-user has, in fact, retained his or her book of cantrips - a tome as large as a good-sized book of higher-level spells. All cantrips are 0 level, have a 1 “ range, have a generally small area of effect, require only soft, simple verbal and somatic components, and are cast in a very short time (VIO to VZ segment). Only those which involve living creatures afford any saving throw. Individuals in a state of extreme concentration (such as when casting a spell) do not have that concentration broken by person-affecting cantrips. The effects of cantrips, and the people and items affected by them, radiate a very faint magical aura.


Good point yet the healing proficiency doesn't really do that much anyway. Also could make it more costly for non priests to 4 slots but make it the same cost as cantrips for priests keeping it one slot for priests since they get it anyway as a universal 0 level spell.


06/13/08 16:55

At first glance, it seems like a no brainer, sure go for it. I just will say my one doubt is that the mage with cantrip can not cause damage so why should a priest be able to heal damage. I think it is always easier to heal, especially when you consider the abstract nature of combat, and compare it to the healing proficiency. I would certainly make it two slots for a priest and at least three for non priests. I do think it may be the end of the healing proficiency.



I discussed this with Bob and he suggested I add it to the player communication and see how others feel about it.

My suggestion is to allow Orison to be a non-weapon proficiency as is Cantrip. The reason I suggest is that in theory both Cantrip and Orison are 0 level spells. And being 0 level spells they really have no game breaking ability. Since Orisons come from gods rather than the ether as Cantrips I would suggest that a character must chose a god to follow/worship. Most characters in our game do not pick a god unless they are of the clerical class, so this would push for more roleplaying from someone who needs to follow the teachings of a god as a cleric does.



Instead of a few of them in reverse order, they're now all listed as such. I couldn't figure out why the first post looked as a middle one and went into edit and saw it was supposed to have a gap, but didn't. I just finished off what Fritz had started.



As you all know I was able to enjoy the company of Bob and Mike and John on Friday. During this session I realized some fairly important things and I think we should discuss it under a new VOIP Thread. I will start it here and if others would just add their comments in an ascending order and date them I would appreciate it.

First I realized that very early on that communication is horrible. When you consider how we as human beings communicate there are 5 ways currently - Chat rooms, Chat salons, voice, body language, and voice and body language. Today a commentator on a talk radio show I was listening to brought up this same issue with a specialist. They pointed out how chat rooms and chat salons although growing in number and popularity are the worse ways by far for us to communicate. We are unable to convey fully all the things we wish to say, as well as some of the emotions behind our conversations. KloOge is basically a chat salon. During the last game I and everyone at Bob's house except Bob was totally confused as to what was going on and the intentions of the NPC's we were dealing with (and we were 5 feet from Bob)!!! For years I have been pushing to have us use a VOIP such as Ventrillo to improve our group communication but more importantly so that Bob could communicate better with us. I understand that Bob is interested in keeping a chat log of the game, but in my personal opinion this is to small a benefit compared to the huge degree of miscommunication that occurs within the game. Not only that but player-player communication is extremely hampered as very often we are unable to differentiate between OOC and IC comments by people. This leads to fights and frustrations within the group that builds personal animosity that is truly destructive for the game. Yes the best way would be to go back to table top gaming with everyone around the table and utilize KloOge as the gaming medium and combat medium, but since we are spread all over the globe this isn't possible. The next best would be multiple video and VOIP links between the different individuals in the game with KloOge for the visual gaming portion (again only for combat visualization). Since at this time I believe bandwidth will be a HUGE block to this I think the next best thing we can do is VOIP alone with KloOge as the combat medium. Sure we lose the chat log but I feel we will gain so much more in the long run. Games will move faster we will be more in sync with each other. No offense to Bob is intended at all but when myself and 2 others were seated 5 feet from him and we misunderstood EVERYTHING that was going on that says a lot about the form of communication being used. So if any of you have a comment about this please post it here as this is the only venue we have at this time to communicate with each other.



I copied the last few player communications and moved them to the top. In speaking with Bob and John this weekend it seems like it would be good to just add communications going up instead of at the end of the page. So if you add a note do so above this one and below the header paragraph which explains what is going on.


This is a thread for discussion on Spells Paul wants to research. BOB likes to get input from other players, so please just agree with me.


Here is a new thread for our current adventure Orcs with pointy Ears


This is a thread for discussion on Spells Paul wants to research. BOB likes to get input from other players, so please just agree with me.


Here is a new thread for our current adventure Orcs with pointy Ears


Ok, this doesn't relate to any of the above topic, but I was wondering, maybe it would be easier for a person, like me, to know what needs editing for anything if it was put in commentary or if we ought to make a new page for a list of pages to check or something in that sort. Otherwise, we could clog this page up with it. Does that sound like something everyone would like to do, rather than have a whole list of changes. Granted some things take me a few tries to get just the right look, but I am still learning the specifics of this site. I'd appreciate opinions on this.


I agree with John, this sounds like a great idea!!!


I was thinking we should use links for different threads, like this one:

Troll Thread


A few other points about Rave Starfire is that he is mainly a bounty hunter for the thieves guild. So think of him as a kind of Mob Enforcer. He rarely does do work outside of the guild but only if the price is right and it doesn't go against the guild. He prefers to capture his bounties alive but doesn't hesitate if needed to bring them in dead. He believes in sticking to the letter of the contract, but because of his own sense of justice has been known to interpret the "letter" of the contract as his conscience dictates. As he appears to his bounties is usually as some type of humanoid male. He doesn't appear to them as a pixie. When he captures his prey he polymorphs into a medium sized creature. He more often will appear as an elf, since pixies appear as elves with wings when not invisible. If anyone has further questions please do not hesitate to ask me or e-mail them to me and I will respond. I will be putting into the character summary a full description of him when I get the chance. Currently I have been working extensively on the Semphar University of Mages.I should have 80% or more completed by Friday to post before the game.


I was under the impression we already dropped the Priest off at the Phi of Semphar. I am pretty sure the Phi is going to release him. We can of course create our own adventure by sending our low level guys to go and kill the Priest. As far as destroying the temple I would suggest an earthquake spell or summon an earth elemental. Have it cause the volcano to erupt. That would destroy the temple.

I thought he did identify her as one of the dead. I think we need to make sure Bob has let us loot all the bodies and the temple as we wish. Since we have pretty much killed everything. Just click off time passed.

My character does not need any training, but Moirra and Tori were going to accompany me to return the murderer back to the guild. I don't see how that should take more than a couple of weeks.

I have a mage and a warrior for my henchmen I was going to introduce.

Yes he is a Bounty Hunter. But an excellent trap finder and lock picker. He is not your friendly joking type pixie, but more like Clint Eastwood or Van Cleef in the the old spaghetti western types. Serious but nice. Does his job with super competence and a quiet arrogance. His reputation as "The Huntsman" often allows him to get bounties to make mistakes so he can track them down. His motto "When life has no value, then there is value in death. That is when I am called. I am the Huntsman." You can also think of him like the Celtic Incarnation the Huntsman. A creature of both justice and vengeance.


I do not consider the adventure over until the temple is destroyed and we report to the Phi, even if he did not actual hire us. I will go along with the party as what to do with the prisoners but it sound like they should be taken to the authorities, that being the Phi.

I do not expect to need any training but Paul will disappear again into the library to research spells. Kit is too high for the adventure, so I have heard.

I plan to run Khan, a four level Force Mage Troll. He is not the combat mage the DragonSlayers are used too but at 4th level, he is what he is. Being a troll has it's advantages and disadvantages. It should be fun.

I do have a number of Followers that would be good for the lower level adventure. There would be no fear of killing a henchman, full ability to develop a character of your choosing, within BOB's rules.


One point on Followers versus Henchman.

Henchman take up some XP from the main group, they get one vote/share of treasure etc. Followers earn some XP but do not take it from the main group, they get no votes/shares etc.

When a Henchman dies, the Player is free to raise dead, etc. but there are only so many Henchmen slots based on Charisma. Characters get a particular number of followers at one point in time. If there are 20 1st level fighters, they will "always" be there. If one goes up in level to 9th, then dies, he is replaced by another 1st level fighter. If all 20 go up to 3rd level and then all die, they all come back as 1st level.


Poke poke... This thing still on? Been a while since we've had cause to use it, I reckon. Anyway, I think we should kind of have a game plan going into this week since we seem to have a good amount of role-play to do.

First off, the priest. While the priest himself is neutral, the god he serves does favor the chaotic and evil. We can either take him to the Phi and hope he pays for his crimes, or do what we do best and shoot first and make up a story about how we were defending ourselves from nearly certain doom if we didn't kill him if anyone asks. Personally, I really think it would be a better idea to just kill him. He didn't seem to upset with the prospect, and his temple got all mucked up once already, why let him do it all again? I also think we should destroy the temple itself. How to do that? Well, while the temple and causeway stone may be enchanted and not shape-able, what about the stone of the volcano lip? Certainly we can do something there. Stone to mud? That should ruin the anchor point of the causeway and send the temple down into the lava.

Also, since my mind works so well in order, before we do anything with the priest we should have him look at the bodies in the temple and see if any of them are the new high priestess chick. We definitely want her dead.

Next: training. I know that once all the xp is applied Fin will gain a level. Will anyone else? Does anyone foresee any crazy training in their character's immediate future? If so speak up now so we can brainstorm what to do and give Bob some time to give us hell over what should be a normal old training. I doubt that Fin is going to do anything big that will require anything outside of normal a couple of weeks to train.

Our next adventure: Bob has said that we are going to be doing a follower adventure. A low level thing that we can take some redshirts to and see who comes back. I think it will be a fun change of pace for us to step backward to the low levels like that. I'm guessing Hans will want to take one of his baby henchmen (unless they gain too many levels from tagging along on this adventure). If anyone needs a henchman to play I've got several that you can pick from, and I'm sure Lorie has more than a few. I'm planning on running my level 3 centaur warrior Bradwarden. He's the captain of Greenborough's militia, but with Anterias staying home he can go ahead and adventure to gain some more experience. I also have a voadkyn ranger or two, pixie who is the head scout and some other goodies. Or I have some plain old priests and warriors for those who want to keep it simple (bleh).

Also, Fritz: I'm guessing that his character is a thief of some sort since he's affiliated with Sebrina's guild. Maybe a bounty hunter kit? But regardless, I'm hoping that he can take over out trap duties. We seem to have a lack of trap finders now days. If he's not, I recommend that someone make a henchman who's a thief and use them for the next low level adventure. While I've got Val, and she's got decent numbers in traps and whatnot (nothing like Fudge, but who can?) I don't want to muck up the board with three characters. And on most adventures I'll probably have Anterias in tow because he's Finglas' dedicated meat shield. And their mother will kill Anterias if anything else happens to Fin.

Also with Fritz: if he's not on the list, would someone who knows his email forward this to keep him in the loop?


Can you say guest DM? psionics is another word for mind flayer powers we will never get.


What about psionics?


Thank you to all who made the game for our 15th anniversary. The cake was a very nice surprise, and it was good to see Bunny and Sean again over at the house. I was also glad that the adventure continued along as normal, just another fun session in what I am sure will be many more to come.


BOB - computer is fixed, net is working, IM is not, the game goes on as planned

Vicki - So, that's why I don't see you online and haven't for quite some time, which is unusual for you. Sorry to hear that your computer died, I hope you'll have it back as good as new, of course, with all your things on it as well. I suppose I'll have to keep track of my questions from now until you get your computer back, or fill this up with them later when they pop up.


My computer died, is at the shop, we think the hard drive is fully recoverable, and I hope to have it back by Friday (5/9) in time for the game till then a lot fewer IMs from me ;)

Cacaphony: Fake Poo!!

BOB - I did add a link to each story section in The Bigger They Are and it seems to help the flow

BOB - there should be a link in the heading for each story connecting back to the Story Arc that it belongs in. Do people think there should be a link from story to story directly at the bottom of each one? Feel free to add that in if you think it works for story flow better.

Vicki - Oddly enough, I had a question while I was resting. Should we have links to the weekly story connecting with each other?


There is no way to reverse the order here, but if we do get to a very long page I will copy and paste the older parts to an archive section with appropriate links. I will try to remember to check the name of that well, it should be here in the chat logs for the spider lady dungeon when I get the chance to search each log I will post it if someone does not beat me to it.

Fritz - Bob could you check the entry I did on Motubo? I forgot the name of the Well of wishes. I think it begins with an "M". Also wouldn't it be better if this message board went up instead of down as eventually it will be quite difficult to follow the threads when it starts to fill up?

BOB - Remember to check the Party Pack entries on the site

Cacophony: This is a sample of an entry