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Archive of Player Communication from 2009


I would like to bring in another henchman, for two reasons. One is is to test out a new priest class I am trying to get approved the Priest of Fate and there is only one class I do not have currently available (thief). Not that all classes are not represented, but when people can not make it, it is always good to have back up. If I am going to play as often as I have been, especially if we are going "Back to the Dungeon" then we will need thieves. And while Kazza is a priest, by design he is limited to one dungeon, so I was thinking a priest/thief would be a good fit.



Finglas didn't take the party off to go fight Blue Gill. He took them to meet up with LJ so that they could find out how LJ found Blue Gill's lair, and whatever other information they could get from him about it. I don't see that they went off half-cocked and needed to be stopped. Moirra and I both try to be a voice of reason and caution, but we (the group) need information, too.

Lorie, you keep talking like everyone is on a set path. They aren't! Nothing is a moot point if you're willing to jump in and be a part of it. You have the power to change the path, to be a voice of sanity, strength, and/or 'get the hell out of there'.

I'm going to post on the OOC board for this adventure. Right now I don't have a ton of time to put up everything to consider, but I do think you guys should look at the Blue Gill page, for one. I went through past pages to find mentions of Blue Gill, and posted some of them there. They contain some interesting information (for instance, Blue Gill was originally a woman, at least in the first adventure that mentioned him. Her. Whatever.) and things to be considered. I've also been putting snippets of information on the MINPC sub-boards (under each of the henchman, for whatever we've learned or figured out OOC about those henchmen). Some of the info was posted last Friday and some was posted two or three weeks ago.

<<<<<<< 10 December 2009

For the record, Guy, I am not taking a swipe at you OOC about Liam being on the boat as much as the fact that splitting the party is generally a bad idea. I am very surprised that John and Mike encouraged that, and that's where I was headed for with that. I believe when it was originally discussed, I said something very similar to this. Any other meaning was unintentional and I apologize if it came across I was faulting you for this.

Kaz, fair enough regarding your exception to my comments, but they stand. I sincerely thought that you more than anyone else would have encouraged the party to STOP, LOOK and LISTEN before following Lord J.

I do have to agree with Mike on the NPCs. This is a long, long, long winding road. BOB always claims we're never nice, but the NPCs normally go out of their way to antagonize or otherwise provoke the group members into reaction. He wonders why we aren't ever nice to the NPCs... well the NPCs start out friendly enough, and it just deteriorates from there. Yes, the Dragonslayers are not known for Diplomacy for a reason.

As I cautionned with the Underdark (and was ignored), I am again urging the group very very strongly to consider what could be ahead. When I was a level 4 Cleric (my cleric has since gone to the great beyond) back 11 years ago (in real time not game time), Ozy and his crew were level 15 or so THEN. A LOT of time has passed since then. When Kylia became a Dragonslayer, Ozy was a man of LORE ... Hainan and Chrysania and other "older" Dragonslayers would stop and check and see if their mind was being read - he was that powerful. This is why I feel the group has put themselves on a path of almost certain death. What tools / allies / tricks do you (who are there, since I know you aren't Kaz) have prepared??? Charm and Diplomacy aren't going to get you anywhere. Heck, I'm not even sure he's a man anymore... So, you might understand a bit more why I think this is a certain death path... but since the majority of the party has already put themselves there, :: shrug :: it's probably a moot point.

We can of course agree to disagree on that. Why I'm angry is the fact that I feel I'm being shut down and blocked at every attempt to contribute. Mike IM'ed me tonight and summed up his plan. It sounds great... three weeks ago if it had been shared with me when I logged in, we might be on a different path than we are now. For the record, he shared: "The origional intent was to pop into lord j, get info, then the next week you log in and take us home, but then you were absent for a few weeks. fin would go home if kylia came and said, let's go back for now."

I COMPLETELY and 150% agree with BOB that we aren't going to be able to blow people up...kill Ozy and crew in one fell swoop or that there is a silver bullet; however, knowing that the the group is NOTORIOUSLY dismal at these types of adventures (ask us about the last major city adventure we had and a girl died), BOB has been setting us up for failure pretty much from the start although, his optimistic side will tell you that he expected us to do X, Y and Q different which would not have resulted in H, J or K. The Underdark? Pretty much should have convinced him of this... Seagate is probably going to prove similar unless we stage an intervention and change course.

So... Kaz, John - since you had ideas, why not bounce them here? That way not only me, but everyone else who hasn't had time to log in (Fritz, Christy, Hans, Mike) can also contribute their ideas.


======= Thank you everyone for posting.

I am sorry if I come across as rude or uncaring. I am not trying to dictate what your characters can or can not to. I am fully prepared in my mind to handle anything I can envision the group doing.

If you want to go farther north to even more landlocked countries to ask them about legendary pirates thousands of miles away I should let you waste your time and do that. It is up to the group what you do to finish this adventure.

I will point out one problem for people is that with the 4 separate time lines concurrently running you do not have the ease of just pooling to one place or another to meet up with someone. It all can be worked out - if players want to work it out.

If you are not invested as a Player in the game being fun for everyone then that is ok - just stay away. Those that do want everyone to have fun will find a way for each person to get a chance to play their characters as they want to. That is what we have always done in the past. No one 'took time off' up until recently. I am done with that. I have altered the 'one round behind rule' to reflect that.

I have never in the past 15 years felt a need to tell players what characters they could run or how people should behave in the game - I let the players work it out. I am changing that now.



>>>>>>> 12-10-2009

Well, everyone sees things from their own point of view, and it's obviously hard to see someone else's point of view when you're angry. I'm not so much angry as annoyed in general, but let's see how this goes.

Mike, I absolutely agree that you did a great job of not being in "kill everything in sight' mode in the Underdark. You dealt with Lydia and Meleager quite deftly, and it was great. But it's also true that, this time, you've been in Seagate - and no questions asked there - and whatever other seaside city you're in now - and how much research was done there? I'm not saying going to meet up with LJ was a bad idea. If you think about it, keeping him from going to Ozzy's lair a third time is probably a good idea, once Finglas is aware of the other information Khan and Moirra now have. And Finglas is THERE to keep LJ away, if he so decides. Since you weren't able to be there last Friday and didn't have the new information (that Ozzy isn't actually specifically after the DS), no one else can really say what Finglas will do - that's up to you.

I don't agree that Bob's NPCs are always impossible to reason with - sometimes they are, and sometimes you just have to be patient and approach them the right way. Sometimes the right way is a smack upside the head, and sometimes the right way is diplomacy.

Lorie, I take exception to some of your comments. The party doesn't want to help themselves? Liam went off on his own, unrecognised as a Dragonslayer, so that he could try to get information that would help the group. It was no one else's idea to send him off, it was Guy's idea, and it made sense. Finglas felt it was a good idea to "hook up" with Lord Jocquin. The possibility for that group to gather information is there.

If you wished that group to take another path, Kylia had the opportunity to pool to Finglas and talk to him about trying something else. She still has that opportunity. I don't believe any of us want the 'certain death' path. I'm not thrilled that Moirra died in the desert dreamworld adventure, but she did, and now she's a gnome. Some of my future RP plans for her have been completely destroyed because of that, but I'm sure as hell not giving up. I'm just making notes of new RP possibilities - none of which include going to Ozymandius as a lamb to the slaughter.

For the record, no, I don't think walking into Ozzy's lair is the smartest thing we can do, nor do I wish to do so. But I'm not going to not play just because that's what someone might currently plan to do. John and I did some idea-bouncing, and it would have been nice if you were there because you often see things from a different angle, and that third way of seeing things could only have helped. But we ARE trying.

Bob, I do have to agree with Lorie's point about trying to research. From a PLAYER standpoint, it's obvious that she should go to Seagate to do that research. From a CHARACTER standpoint, it only stands to reason that Kylia would go to the familiar places before going to Seagate. It made not make sense to you, as DM, but it makes sense to her and she's being true to her character. Above all else, this is a roleplaying game. Lorie is playing Kylia. She's having Kylia do what Kylia would do, whether or not it's what DM wants Kylia to do.

It's a GAME, people. If it's not fun, it's not worth playing. It would be nice if people could see other people's points of view and put aside anger and even some of the rancor there's been, so we can all, AS A TEAM, figure out the best course of action together.


ok first of all liam being on the boat was MY idea not john or mikes. That was not some rash desicion on my part i thought about the best way for liam to help get information since hes not a spell slinger and this was the best way i came up with since liam isnt known as a dragon slayer right now.

10 Dec LAD

<<Talk of 'staying away until the story is over' is done in my book. Players who are not fully invested in helping out the group are not needed. Staying away to keep your character alive for another day is not an option. The groups actions is what lead to this story line - and the groups actions are what will finish it.>> ====

I stand up and wish to be counted as a player not fully invested. There's no two ways about it after last week. I give up trying to help the party, because it's clear they don't want to help themselves and I can't help people like that.

The pressure to come and save a party who hasn't really done much to help themselves doesn't seem like a great investment in time and/or effort for Kylia. She's watched so many of her friends die, why would she come a willing participant in you trying to kill yourself? I'm feeling torn as you are all friends...but I don't feel like the party wants to continue and the certain-death option felt like a better fit for everyone and you're all in agreement. You and I had this discussion last week. John and / or Mike lead the party to where they are now without any back-up plan other than leaving Kaz waiting for Kylia and putting Liam on a boat by himself. Based on what I've gathered, on the other side of the coin, the party felt pressured by YOU to go RIGHT NOW without having the time to plan / prepare because of the uncertainity of Lord J being in the same place for a given period of time.

In addition, I have now had Kylia attempt TWICE to do research - BOB your response to both were less than successful. Seagate fits with your adventure, not with Kylia... and that's the issue for me. Kylia wouldn't just wake up and go "Gee, I think I should do research in Seagate" (in her mind, it's not that large of a town). Yes, I know it's very close to where the party is, where the baddie was last seen, etc., but I was given the impression that I have time and I was trying (between trips to Wolfspack and now Halstatt) to utilize what we have before going and having to owe someone else. Would I have eventually gotten there? Yes. But was I ready to go there RIGHT THEN AND THERE? NO. I hope I'm making a point, because several times in the past year I have felt severely restricted by this type of issue.

Frankly, it's not fair that those of us who have attempting to do ANYTHING AT ALL are being cast as the bad seeds while those who stand by and disavow any ownership or control when they are the only characters logged in - especially since our core group have all been with the group for YEARS -- is just downright unfair. Perhaps BOB that's why Mike and I are standing up and willing to stand aside so that new ideas can be presented, because to date, we haven't seemed to be so successful. Not sure you stopped to think about that as you were writing us off. We want to see the group succeed too, believe it or not. Me personally, if it is the will of the group to down themselves, I'm willing to stand aside and let them do that. Not what I want, but it's the "will of the group" - you know majority.

Even if the CURRENT group of Dragonslayers are all dead BOB, to your point, there are still SEVERAL of the Dragonslayers (as characters, not players) who remember the ORIGINAL Ozymandius encounter to be a target, isn't that how we got in this position in the first place? So let's just call that a non-issue and move along.

I am in agreement with you that there is a lack of player communication - and I do include myself in this bucket; however, when you propose plans and are met with :: shrug :: "sure...I guess" or you sit there for 2 hours before you get where the party wants you to go, you can't help but be annoyed. In my years as a player in this game, I have absolutely never been as frustrated, feeling bitter or not having a motivation to log-in as I have had in the past 12 months. I don't say that to hurt people's feelings and it has me questionning myself and why I play with everyone - because it's possible the issue is me. I tried staying away to see if it was me ... and trying to take a break to renew my interest / spark in playing. Alas, nothing changed and last Friday was my breaking point. Logging out was the alternative that I chose so as to not raise a fuss in the manner that I have complained about in the past.

I just don't feel the game has the flexibility that it once did. If I want to go to XXXX, BOB, I can't. Friday night made that VERY VERY clear to me. You had Seagate prepared, not Halstatt, so my decision was met with your clear disapproval and I can't help but wonder if the flexibility factor was there. You'll probably disagree (seeing the above point about Seagate being in your adventure, etc.) but that's my feeling.

I don't want to be level 1 or level 100 and continue to play the way we have - because it won't make a difference. We aren't aligned, in or out of character. I know that the level 1 thing is supposed to "fix" that, but it won't "fix" differences of philosophy or people's inability to be there every week. So we're going to end up with player disparity again sooner or later. Perhaps we should look at that rather than trying a entire campaign reset. Otherwise, it's just geography.

So...give me a compelling reason to log-in, prove to me that the party wants to live, show me someone else trying to do something. Even if I do, I will be late because I need to send the girls north.




The NPC's attitudes towards the Dragonslayers will change when the Dragonslayer's attitude towards them changes.

Paul/Keith is not with the group right now Mike because you said you wanted to do training and research. John set his character on that path then the group decided to change course and jump to where Lord J was the next day. Eventually Keith will catch up to the groups time line - then we will see what John does with him.

If you really think that what you are doing is effective as eliminating a group of people then go for it. I would never think to go into an armed camp of people who know I am coming where I am outnumbered at least 10 to 1 and outgunned as well. But if you think that will work then go for it. {You say "how could we know that - and I answer that you have ignored lots of opportunities to find out. Gee I wonder if Lord J just walked around blindfolded the whole time he was there? Gee how long was he there. Gee who did he talk to when he was there? Gee How many people did he see? Gee I was really stupid to spend TWO FULL GAMING SESSIONS talking with an NPC and forgot to ask him ANY questions about what we would be facing. And yeah two full gaming sessions of the key NPC for the mystery helping you sure does seem like BOB is just playing the NPC's to screw over the players. Could not be the Players fault at all. }

You have a group of NPCs who right now annoy the Dragonslayers. You have sworn to kill them. You will find it almost impossible to kill them all. So you are ensuring that you leave someone alive with a reason to hate the Dragonslayers. That is what John is worried with Mike. Violence will not create a final solution. Strength is needed but alone it will fail. I do not think that anyone believes Mike is forcing others to act a certain way but with the fractured paths each character is taking and random times each Player is present it is creating additional friction.

When John and Kaz took a step back and looked at the information you have already gathered they got a much better picture of what you are up against and possible ideas on dealing with it.

This is a complicated story arc and it is not something that you can shoot an arrow at and kill. No spell, luck with the dice or one single thing will work or solve it. The group of Players needs to figure out what the outcome you want is and then how to accomplish that outcome. There is no time limit to finish this Story Arc in and there is no pressure from me for anyone to move forward faster than they want to. John and Kaz one night with Hans in for part of another night got a lot accomplished by talking with each other and with talking to NPCs. Just because there is no combat does not mean that the story is not moving forward.

I want to be clear - I have never said the game is falling apart and I do not believe it is.

I think the problem is that some of the PLAYERS are not reacting well to adversity.

Talk of 'staying away until the story is over' is done in my book. Players who are not fully invested in helping out the group are not needed. Staying away to keep your character alive for another day is not an option. The groups actions is what lead to this story line - and the groups actions are what will finish it.


12/10 I read the chat log from last week, and I’ve gotta say that I’m annoyed. John, you spent the whole session talking about how I have a foolish plan and will not deviate from it. But when I proposed that we go to Lord Joquin, no one said anything to the contrary. If you have a grand master plan, by all means, share it. Why don’t you bring Paul along to help us out since he’s the most magically inclined out of the whole group and he can actually teleport to boot.

Bob, you said to treat them as you would terrorists? So… we nuke them from orbit? You don’t talk things out with extremists. You can’t make a show of force and then “not piss them off”. They’re irrational religious nuts. If that is what we are up against, then there is no alternative then them or us. We can’t say, hey we’re not who hurt you. Why don’t we just be friends.

And besides that, since when did I become some bloodthirsty killer? I’ve tried again and again during the underdark campaign to talk things out and not kill people. Hell, I even tried negotiating with goblins. But when has Bob ever be cooperative with his NPC’s. When I think inflexible and stubborn I think Bob NPC’s. From my experience, you don’t reason in this game. Trying to talk things out only gets you’re a headache and frustrated. Maybe I’m way off, but it might help if we got some more positive resuts in the past, then I’d rather go and talk to Ozzy. But again, I have little to no evidence that that would solve anything. Every NPC is like a brick wall we have to batter our way through.

Now John, if you think I’m doing such a horrible job, maybe you should step back up into a leadership role. You’ve been saying over and over how Paul stepped down and didn’t want to adventure, how you don’t care what we do, now that he’s reincarnated you’re using that as more of an excuse that he can’t do anything, but you can’t stand what I’m doing.

Bob is right, this game is falling apart because no one communicates. Bob, you have a hard time communicating with the PC’s in any useful manner, none of the players communicates with each other when it’s time to do planning, but after the group steps into action, there’s plenty of bitching about the poor planning. Hmmm…. Does anyone else see the trend?

If you are waiting for me to show up “so we can move on” then you might be waiting for a while. I’m not sure if I will be playing next week or not. I do not want to steamroll the party into doing anything they don’t want to do. I will stop playing and let the rest of you finish this however you want since what I have done is apparently against all the involved people’s wishes.


well i wish i could say i knew when id be in next but work has me pretty wrapped up this month of course the one day I KNOW i could play is xmas day lol. if I dont get to see or talk to anybody before then I wish you all a very Happy and Safe Holiday Season. that means no wrestling cars Bob lol.

It is some what amazing to me that this group has staying on couse for so long. Many time in the past we have abandoned adventures through bordom or hardship. The group has been following BOB's plan together for quite some time. Unfortunatly, as soon as the plan became open ended, the group splintered into four or five paths. Now is the time to bring them all back to gether, (in the holiday spirit) and work on a new plan. We can do anything if we work together.



With 2 days left of a two week period between games, it apears that no one has an issue with the game that that would like resolved away from Friday night. I personaly like to keep Friday open for roleplaying and adventure. Here hopping.



John I agree with you. I want the game to be A) Fun B) Interesting C) Challenging.

I am frustrated that it seems the Players are telling me that they are not having fun because they are not either done with the adventure already or because it is too complicated or because I am leading people by the nose/railroading them into doing things. I do not know how to make it both easier for everyone AND be less restrictive/more open than it already is.

I think that the Players need to talk to each other to figure out exactly what you all know, what you all want to do about that knowledge, and how you plan to increase your knowledge/find the missing pieces.

This is the story arc that deals with meeting and attempting to defeat the big bad guy at the end of the story. I am sure that each Player knows things that other Players do not. I include Guy and Kaz in that mix as well as Mike, Lorie and John. Each can see different parts of the puzzle and can contribute to solving this. Because everyone is not contributing and or asking questions (not the right question just any questions) lots of things are being missed. Asking "what happened the times you encountered Ozzy before" would have given you the information about guessing previous levels. John's comment about the dwarf child was very informative, but he did not elaborate and when I prompted him to he said if others asked about it. No one did so that still is not added to the puzzle.

It is supposed to be hard to finish this, just like it should be hard on an NPC who wanted to attack you in your home and kill off your group. This is what playing high level characters is all about.

If people only want to go through dungeons killing things then everyone should have been very happy to be in the Underdark - and we all know how that turned out.

I have kept the maps painfully few so there are zero issues with clues from any of that. I keep putting links to various parts of this site in to help guide thoughts without spoon feeding anyone.

I will be ready to play next Friday (Dec 4) and continue along with the story arc. Or if everyone wants to just chuck it in because playing high level characters is not fun then we can start over.

The next Dragonslayer Era is called "Starting Over...." for a reason. The group will be at a cross roads no matter what with the conclusion of the current Era no matter how it all turns out.

I do hope that there can be a lot of discussion about this on the Story Arc in and out of character discussion pages as well. I will post this over there as well.


For me, it is not a question of easy, but interesting. (I am NOT complaining on either part) The party, for the most part, took an option of hooking up with someone who had been were we wanted to go and got him to agree to lead us there. Regardless of how unprepared we may be, our goal and path seem clear. If history serves, this will be at least a near death experience. I think it is who the DragonSlayers are. (Players and characters, or characters becuase of the players?)

But for you to say things like, we know he is at least "15th level 20 games years ago" is telling me somthing I did not know or consider, let alone our characters. Our charaters don't really know who was scrying, though you went out of your way to make that more than clear, including having a number of low level NPS's perceive that they were being scryed. And now we are being formaly warned of potential tripple crosses. Thank you but I have played enough to know to expect the unexpected, but still not enough to know how to plan for the unexpected without over planning, knowing all the possiblities.

My goal is not sucess but fun.

It may just be me.


Please let me now how easy I need to make this for everyone. People complaining you are on week five of a story arc. One where you are going after a high level villain. Someone who was at least 15th level 20 games years ago and most people think is only a legend. One you have done ZERO real research on but you know has been scrying the group to research who you are and what you can do. An adventure that involves thinking, deduction, potential double and triple crosses, traveling to places the group has not adventured in for over ten years of real time. At least a dozen high level bad guys to find and take down.

But apparently we need to wrap up this story line right away and move onto something else. So please tell me what I can do to make this as easy as possible for you to finish.


I did make a decision about the Player Surveys finally. I did post the Survey Responses about me there and a note about the other player's information if wanted.


Just to be clear, I think our prisoner in Roadhaven is planning an escape. I did not have time to tell Loir in the character so I will tell everyone here. Not this last week but the game before when we (Kit and Morria and Han's character) were interigating Octavia? she said she had gotten some pen and paper and was writting a song. While it is outside the rules of D&D, I can see BOB ruling that she is trying to memorize a spell she already knows. It may be too late but consider yourselves warned.



Oct 29

All he needs are descendants? That's easy. He's 16 again. All he will be thinking about is making descendants. Also, I'd say that he's still ruler for sure. He died, he got better, had some plastic surgery. Still Paul, just a different meat suit. If he does lose control for some reason I'm going to head up a black ops team mission to remove the pool and move it somewhere else, or failing that, destroy it. It is too valuble a resource for NPC's to play with. If we can't have it, no one can!

As for Kit what training does she need? Chances are we can click that off right in the beginning of play tomorrow so she's all buff for the upcoming adventure.


Oct 26

John posted about the end of the Protectorate. That is not necessarily the case. As a wizard he does have followers of apprentice wizards. He can also run a country as any normal ruler can, it is just that as the followers from Paul die they will not be automatically replaced.

It is up to John and the group to decide what you would like to do about that territory and if you want the Dragonslayers to be involved in that.

Then again this is one of the problems of trying to establish territories. You need descendants to keep the line of succession continuing and many adventurer started kingdoms never make it past the life time of the person who establishes it.


Oct 19

Excellent work by Kaz, Hans and John to start off the The Missing Island - NPC list and discussion pages and to organize what the group knows so far. With no game this week (Oct 23 09) it might be a good chance for everyone to get together to plot and plan without me around. Then first thing on the 30th we can step through any rolls that are needed and clear up any timeline issues. Then continue the investigation or move in what ever direction the group is heading.


Yes, Kira was an easy fix, all she has to do is roll. Rave is in Deep Freeze so the party can find some one to resurect him, if not, Paul can reincarnate him. (One thing for sure, he will be taller) Paul is back, reincarnated as a 16 year old male mage. Not quite what I hoped for or expected, but I will make the most of it. (Thanks to Rob). The biggeest game diffrence is that he has only 27 hit points and no protection. (That too) Paul has to train for 7th level spells, and research some spells to be able to help the party. He will be much more helpful as a utility mage at home until he gets some protection. I will be active with Kit and Khan, while Paul works in the background, though Kit has some trainning to do. So, as a player, I will work more on scroll and such to support the group and let the other players work on stratgy and actions.

I am starting a seperate page for spell research discussion. Spell Research


Well Kira will be an easy fix is Paul comes back. We just need a stone to flesh. Problem is that is a mage spell and we seem to be fresh out of mages. I think there is an oil or balm or something that will do the same as a stone to flesh spell? Perhaps we could track some down and give Kira a good rub down. Then it's just her rolling her system shock next time she's in the game.

Now we need to consider out next adventure. This is our planning time. I won't be in game tomorrow but I'd like to offer my opinion. Kylia seemed to sound like she wanted to jump right into it. I would suggest we cool off for a bit. Khan could possibly learn/research a stone to flesh spell or ointment. I want Fin to learn how to craft +1 or +2 arrows himself. Fin or Kylia or Moirra can take some time to write up a bunch of waterbreathing scrolls to save us spell slots later. You know we'll need them going after Blue Gill again. Bob brought up the point that What's his face McDumbass has infiltrated Ozzy's hideout not once, but twice. Now the pride in me says anything McDouchyface can do we can do better, but it might be easier to find him and get him to take us back in that way. If I think of more I'll post.


Character Class limits are always in effect but remember that the limits in the books are for "average" characters so that a high primary stat can increase that level. John is right about the difference in dual class versus multi classed. I would say it would be better to figure out the race first in this case then figure out the class(es) to work the XP with. There are the rare Triple Class races that will suck up a lot of XP and give someone a lot of flexiblity also.

I am confident that anything John creates will be useful for the group and fun for everyone to interact with.

Then the issues of Rave and Kira still need to be resolved also.


XP will be updated by Friday start of game

While in character and in theory, it would be great to being Paul back, "reality" as far as the game goes, has to be considered and some rules should be confirmed before proceeding. The reason why Paul (and I) would accept a mage recinarnation, is all new bodies are humonoid and there is no loss of xp.(correct BOB?) My recent work on possible new characters bought up a new wrinkle. Even at 1/2 xp, I am very limited at the rase/class combination where my xp will not be wasted on maximum level limits. I need to know, and want others to know, what will happen to Paul. While past rulings have given precident for Paul still being a Fighter/Mage with any humanoid, (we have a troll mage) there has yet to be a ruling on level limits. IF Paul is brought back as a Bugbear, would he still be able to be an 13th level mage. Almost as important, we he be able to contune to advance in that class. Even with an 18 Int, how much can a Bugbear learn?

The change from dual class to multi class, as a demi human, seems to indicate I would advance in both fighter and mage, but that is also in question.

From a Meta Gamming point as BOB called it, I would hate for the party to go in debt or spend time or effort to bring Paul back if he is not able to do what the party or I is expectig.

Just trying to save time for Friday.


The group made it out of the Underdark and is now into the Missing Island story arc to complete the Trade Wars Era.

I am compiling the surveys and will have full results soon I gave an overview at the beginning of the night on Oct 09 09.

Lots of planing and discussions for this story arc please check on the story arc's page for links to relevant issues.


Will be out 10/16. Got free lower level tickets to see the Fliers game. Wewt for Phat Lewt. -Mike

If you have not already done so (or if you want to make any changes to one you have turned in) please fill out the surveys. I would like to close them out on Wednesday October 7th so I can have a report on them by Friday's session. (links are on the News & Updates page)

Thank you for your time and input



I will be late tonight. Dad's birthday dinner and all. Hopefully be in around 8.


Thank you Before I settle in to much I also would like imput from the crowd on what type of character they think the party needs. I would like something diffrent and I realise that we have a ranger already. Does anyone have a sugestion I may not have thought of?


Answers: 1) Can I roll a stat or two before deciding to add exta dice, understaning that I can not add dice after I roll one stat. No, that choice needs to be made before any stats are rolled

2) If I add the same number of dice to each roll, for example add 2 die to all six stats, do I still have to declare which stat I am rolling. It is such a risk as it is,spending the points, durring testing I still got quite low rolling as many as 8 die total that I may still not be able to have my intended class, a ranger. You can add the same number to each roll if you like and then not need to declare, but you can state which stat you are rolling for, roll the first 4 die dropping the lowest. If that stat is not high enough yet you can then pay for another die and roll. If it boosts you up enough fine, if not you can pay for a second die, and so on.

Yes to the potential of having such a character as a follower - but the stats for the Priest of Fate are not finalized yet.


I am working on my next character and I want to check on a ruling. I want to make a Ranger, so I am considering spending some of my XP on rolling extra dice. 1) Can I roll a stat or two before deciding to add exta dice, understaning that I can not add dice after I roll one stat. 2) If I add the same number of dice to each roll, for example add 2 die to all six stats, do I still have to declare which stat I am rolling. It is such a risk as it is,spending the points, durring testing I still got quite low rolling as many as 8 die total that I may still not be able to have my intended class, a ranger.

And on a related topic, if a priest of fate is just another specialty priest, as all priests in BOB's world is, can I have one as a henchman or follower?

I apprecite all input as it is required for approval.


9/25 1:30 PM

After Two weeks to decide, Fritz's better be ready to go at the stock of combat. I have to react to what he does so you'll have to give me a few minute to decide between my 10 or so options.


I want to apologize to everyone for the problems on Friday night. Life is better now and this upcoming week we will pick up where we left off. I will subtract an encounter or two to shorten the time and not penalize anyone for my absence during the night.

If you have not filled out the surveys yet please do so when you can. The input so far has been very good and I look forward to seeing more very soon.


I posted the new Surveys for Fall 2009. I emailed everyone a link, and I posted links here on the News & Updates page as well.

Please take the time to fill these out over the next two weeks. I will be gathering the responses and creating a report for everyone to share. I plan to do this when the current Deep Dark Dangerous story arc is completed and everyone is out of the Underdark.

Thank you in advance.


I noticed and I approve. The biggest issue is not characters dying but the game going so slow and then when we have an encounter, we just want to get into it. That also causes confusion when rules don't go quite as expected. We all have to keep going forward.


9-11-09 As some of you noticed tonight I am taking a more active role, after the last drow/yochlol fight i noticed a pattern in the way the group operates, and it hasnt been working that well. Guess what thats part of the reason why you have so many deaths (Bobs murder attempts aside. lol)Im sure that some of you will not be happy with me because of this and all i can say is Im sorry but something needs to change and if that means taking charge more often then Ill do it. Im not trying to say that Liam is going to try and become the leader of the Dragonslayers, ill settle for just being warleader lol j/k but seriously like Bob i bring a lot of years of gaming experience to the table I have seen and done a lot both good and bad and im going to try and help keep the group alive and moving forward.If you want to argue with bob over stuff then PLEASE try and do it in IMs and lets keep the game going rather than stopping everything so you can argue about this or that.


I can live with this. Especially because it was done at the end of last week anyway :)



Tonight I will be eating sushi, drinking sake, listening to japanese drumming, and admiring some lovely oriental gardening all with a beautiful woman on my arm.

I hope you all can see why I chose that rather than hanging out with Bob. (No offense of course)

Now, seeing as John has been so very patient waiting for Paul to come back I will give him the ability to control Fin for one spell. Now that we're safe in gnome-land and Paul will be able to survive his day of walking dead if he wishes Fin will cast Raise Dead on him. I'd hate for him to suffer longer in player limbo because Bob's not pretty enough to keep my attention.

I hope Bob will let me do this one thing away from the table. If not, I'll call it in at 7 as we have done in the past, but I won't be quite as happy a camper if I have to do that. Neither will my date.

Have fun with the beholders and illithids tonight. Oops. I said too much.


Just give me four working arms without taking away my legs and we will be fine. I'll even destroy the coin for BOB



John you have me ROFLMAO!!! You actually don't even have to go to that extent. I could make us all permanent regenerative, vampiric, multiarmed, storm giant strengthed, fire/electric/gas/cold/metal/poison/charm immuned, multiclassed, mindreading, missile avoiding, phase shifting, polymorphing, treasure detecting, undead controlling super characters!!!!!!!!

If anyone notices I have NOT used the coin to that level of power and don't intend to. All I intend on doing is making 3 "USEFUL NOT ABUSEFUL" potions a day as needed. I don't make "Wish" potions, or "Permanent Charm" potions. I intend to keep it simple. Honestly when I first got it I didn't realize it had the potential to be "Artifact" level. I just thought it would be very utilitarian to be able to make simple useful potions of healing or whatnot, whenever we needed (so did Bob when he agreed to it. That is really why I haven't mentioned much about it to the group.

After realizing what it actually can do, I promised Bob I wouldn't abuse it like Marco did with his Ring of Monster Charming...or like John mentioned. And I have limited the time limit on the potion longevity so it wouldn't be around long enough for Paul to be able to use it for research.

Okay, Okay... I will admit that the very last thing I intend to use the coin for and then dispose of it will be to turn Paul into a "Mega Delux Demigod Lich" when he is ready to retire....Hehehehehe - Be afraid Bob...Very Afraid!!!!



Thank you all for surviving long enough to bring Paul back. I think I went to far by thinking of being reincarnated as a troll. With level limits I think I would have been screwed. I will change my will but only if I can be reincarnated as a human.

There is another inspiration from last night and more proof that Fritz is the rule lawyer but I am the rule abuser.

Without even researching, I took Fritz's magic item and took it to the next level. We should NOT make a potion of Luck and drink it and then make a potion of Super Heroism and drink it then use the potion of luck to roll that both potions become permenant. That would be devestating to the balance of power.

It is bad enough that if we can make any potion, the Paul can research and get the formula for any potion. At least at that point, we still have to get components and make but still we are in dangerous waters.

I just hope we make it home.



Mike as far as Fin doing a lot of casting most I felt could be done while the wall of fire was still up. I believe we have 9 rounds left to go on it.


For one, Fin isn't going to be doing as much damage now. Klooge at some point doubled his damage bonuses, adding them up into a total column as well as counting them in the individual.

Also, Fritz, you've got Fin casting a lot of spells there. A) when casting, he can't shoot which is his real forte. B) There is probably going to be a lot of support spellwork needed after this fight. i.e.: healing, raising. C) with the yochlol gone I'm not sure how dangerous the drow really are now, even understaffed as we are. The main threat are the wizards and them bum-rushing us. They aren't willing to cross the wall of fire, so if that gets continued as an illusion we should be able to kill them all/drive them off.





Ok further expansion on ideas for Friday. (part 2)

First starts with a question for Bob. I don't know if this is a personal gaming device or I read this in the rules. It goes sorta like this. If an illusion is based on some part with reality it is more "realistic" and more difficult to save against. If it is not associated with anything in reality it may be easier to resist. For example - If in the Underdark we just create a cloud giant illusion in this combat then since it is unlikely a cloud giant would be here people would get a bonus to their saving throw. If we made an illusion of the dead people here rising like zombies then others would have a penalty to the saving throw.

I ask this because I am thinking to use the wall of fire that Finglas has made to make a permanent illusion of it staying up. And then having jets of fire come out of it periodically and injure people. But what would happen is that Finglas would shoot his arrows through the "illusionary" wall of fire and these would be the "jets of fire". They would strike people for damage (just like a flaming arrow would). So the drow would more likely believe that the wall was still present. Also as this occured potentially have someone walk through the wall and be coated in the flames like a walking fire elemental with a flaming sword. This could be Val''Iant using his body as the form of the creature as he walks through the illusion. Since we "know" it is an illusion we should be able to see through it, whereas the drow can't. They also won't get magic resistance unless they physically come in contact with the "illusionary" wall. Taking it one step further we toss continual light stones through the "illusionary" wall and have them seem like small glowing balls of fire that light and we spread around so we can see better. We then at the same time toss pyrotechnic flasks around creating smoke. Also if Finglas were to cast obscurement this would aid us even more. On top of this pyrotechnics spell by finglas would be a triple boost. This allows me and Mentor to sneak out with the smoke and attack or cast spells from outside the wall. Finglass on the otherhand would stay behind the wall protected from melee attacks while he shoots arrows at the drow. Each arrow of course changed into a jet of flame or arrow of fire by the illusion. Since Finglas does so much damage with his arrows alone it will be more believable to see them taking damage from it thereby enhancing the illusion. Now if Moirra can cast her omniscent eye spell on finglas then he should be able to see through the obscurement spell. Moirra would stay behind the wall as well and cast spells to keep us "protected" or healed. She would continue with a sanctuary and invisibility spells on her.

Now so far we have run into drow and 2 yochlol's but still have much more devastating foes to face I am sure...Such as Driders. My concern is that they may attack from behind, or be waiting in the recesses behind the drow to get us.

So the next thing to do is for Finglas or Moirra to summon insects then turn them into giant insects. Next using these summoned/conjured insects create an illusion of more insects, possibly doubling the number to assist in the attack of the drow. I would suggest ants if possible since the drow may be able to control the spiders. You could do the same thing with a spell such as sticks to snakes. Mentor has an illusion spell as well with sound. Finally if we really get in a pinch we can combine a damage causing spell and another illusion spell to knock down the ceiling separating us from the drow and possibly allowing us to escape.

If anyone has any seeds (I know I have some plants but they are dead), then we could toss them across the ground, Moirra could cast plant growth and then Finglas could cast spike growth on the plants.

Well these are some of the ideas I have come up with up to this point. Of course success will depend on peoples willingness to go along with these ideas and ultimately on Bob if he agrees that they can work.



Well for those who weren't there Friday, I must say it was a blast. Sure there were some game play issues and disagreements, but what do you expect with the kind of situation we were in. Overall I think that at this point things have worked out well given the team work that was engaged. Rave and Finglas made a great team in overcoming failed rolls and finally taking down the Yochlol. Finglas and Mentor did well in creating barriers and incapacitating the drow. Liam and Val'Iant acted as a nice fighting wall to stop the drow from getting pass. Sadly we lossed our guide (that seems to be a common theme to our delvings in the underdark).

We have 9 rounds I believe until the wall of fire goes down that was created by Finglas. I suspect we won't have quite that much time, but should use the few rounds we have to prepare to rebuff the onslaught of the rest of the drow. I don't think we can very well run away in a few rounds and not have them pursue us.

Let's say we have 3 rounds in which to prepare for them to get passed Finglas' wall of fire. Mentor will be at full HP's and Rave will have gained 1/3 of his lost HP's. We know that we shall not have Liam to assist us so we shall have to survive without him (not something I am looking forward to). Anyway if Moirra returns then we should take the opportunity to buff ourselves as much as possible with her and Finglas' clerical abilities. Heal Val'Iant while he is still under the Super Heroism potion effects and cast protection against fire, mental control, and the other elements if possible as well as Prayer and bless type spells.

I would then send Rave and Mentor loose as assasins against the drow - prior to the flame coming down if we can. Both Mentor and Rave have the ability to go in and out of gaseous form. If we can create smoke and or fog like effects then the drow should not be able to notice them (hopefully). Rave can then use his killing abilities, and pixie abilities and lay waste to the drow with sneak attacks as Mentor weakens them with some magic attacks (he has a bunch of second level damage and distraction type spells). Yes I know they have resistance but as we have seen even with the demon it can be overcome. Who knows maybe we will get lucky. I would follow that up with Finglas' as always devistating bow attacks which can wipe out most opponents if he can be protected from physical attacks. We can place Val'Iant as a bulwark to help protect him and if and cloaking or AC boosting spells can also be used (even a haste of some kind) that would make Finglas' nigh unbeatable. Finally I would make Moirra invisible and even double boost it with a sanctuary spell, then have her utilize her powers to keep us healed and protected. If she doesn't attack then she should remain undetected.

Is this guarenteed to succeed? Of course not, but I believe since the Yochlol is gone a head on attack will give us our best chance of frightening them off or killing them. We were really hampered by it's prescence. I think with it gone Finglas will really be able to devistate the drow.

Now this is a generic profile of what we should do if you want more specifics at this point I would suggest double illusions by Mentor and Rave potentially bringing in gnome reinforcements from behind the drow, or futher barriers to them being able to attack. Also we have NON MAGICAL flasks of fire, smoke and acid we can use against them. AS long as they don't come in contact with the physical illusion they shoudn't be able to disbelieve nor gain magic resistance bonus. Rave can kill 2 drow a round with his back stabbing and poison attacks. Finglas in the minimum could kill 3-4 a round, and Val'Iant probably one a round with his sword. I don't know what other offensive magic that Finglas can do at this time, but I don't suspect we are dealing with mages or clerics above level 6. If magical darkness is created I believe that Finglas and Mentor both can see and that will inhibit the drow as well.

Now as far as Paul is concerned. Depending on how Bob plays it, if we survive and Finglas chooses to reincarnate him to help us, I can potentially boost his chances for a benificial roll as to what he returns as. Sure he will be a lower level but he will still have his smarts and cunning as well as some of his magic and his items. He won't need to be a henchman of anyone John brings into the game. Creating another character to get us out of the underdark may theoretically be impossible. But if we can at least capture one of the drow, I may be able to convert him into a zombie/follower and have him take us to the gnome city if he can't get us out of the underdark entirely. I suggest we capture 2 of them just in case. If John wishes to play Val'Iant or Mentor it is fine with me. I have already created a dwarven underdark guide for the campaign and if Bob wishes he can be strolling around and find us lost and rescue us (and no he isn't outfitted with a ton of magic items - his story line is they get stolen and he is on a quest to find them). I have been wanting to bring him in and John could play him as well. If John wants to bring in another character that is fine also...I might even suggest that both John and I bring in characters as we seem to lose guides like a lepper loses body parts. A reincarnated Paul will still probably be higher level then any guide we bring in so Paul can still have a henchman to introduce.

Gang aft agley!


So clearly it will be a while before Paul is brought back. Not that I doubt the ablity of Friz and Mike and their characters to survive the underdark, I was responsible for the guide that was killed last night. I was thinking how to bring in a new character, and I had a few ideas, not that the party needs any saving.

1) I can be one of the last drow who is actually possessed by a good wizard
2) I can be one of the last drow who is actually a gnome poly morphed to inflitate the group
3) I can be gnome leading a group from the city on patrol
4) I can be a bat or rat that is actual an adventure that was polymorhed by the drow but tries to communicate to the party to see if you can dispel my curse.
5) I could be an actual lycantrope that regains temporary control that asks the party for help
6) I can be an astral traveler who got lost on the astral plane and comes to the prime material when he sees the fight\\

Any work for you?

Now some may say, don't retire Paul. I had an idea about that too. If [Bob] allows, I would allow Paul to be reincarnated by a priest. Depending on what he came back as, he could be considerably lower level. My new character can then take Paul on as a henchman. It could be a lot of fun, especially if BOB is creative with the reincarnation table. If my new character is not high enough, maybe Finglass would take him on as a henchman.



Welcome back Mike. I think you should read all The Missing Island stuff and then just be ready for the next session. Kaz and Fritz can do the highlights for you of the last session. Between them, Robert and John they did a good job of moving forward during a distracting night.



I are back! So Paul died? Did he get better? Should I read all the back logs or is it all just chat and combat log?



Bob you have an MIIC, and an MIOOC. How about an MI**?



Ahhhh let me CORRECT my previous post then -

To my knowledge John is the only Dragonslayer player to have not just one, but 2 characters die with a bug up his a** - and up his nose, and ears, and mouth, and...




Some Historian you are Fritz. I had a Wood Giant Henchman back when we had to walk everywhere. He was 90% invisible outside and got ran over by a pack of ants.



I am not sure if this is true or not...but to my knowledge Paul is the first Dragonslayer to die with a bug up his a** - and up his nose, and ears, and mouth, and...



Correction: Anterias is not dead. As far as we know, he is alive and well on vacation in the abyss.



Trade Wars has proven to be exciting and deadly as expected.

  • Valgar
  • Victoriana
  • Moirra
  • Anterias
  • Paul

All died (although Moirra got better) in the adventure so far (not counting the attack by the wraiths that killed almost all the henchmen but time was reset on).

Almost out of the Underdark now, only 15 more encounters to go!

What could go wrong?


DragonSlayer new motto: "Having a 'Plan B' shows a lack of commitment to 'Plan A'"

I know we don't plan, often. But this way, when we do, we only need one.



Question to group.

I have created a dwarf hireling that is originally from Morten and is skilled in underdark navigation. He knows how to travel back and forth from Khazefryn (of course with in put from Bob as to how it is done and what happens). I was thinking of making another character which would be his partner (a Thri-Kreen/Tohr-Kreen) ranger/cleric. There may be some issue about him being an underdark ranger as Bob thinks that in his world he has them as being above ground only (not sure at this time). I haven't finished him (it would only take a few hours) but I am not going to waste time if I have to worry about claustrophobia. Bob may not consider it a waste of time, but to those of us who consider each hireling or henchmen an important person/character that we would easily substitute for the "main" character, then if he is unplayable it is a waste of time to create. Not being derogatory in anyway to Bob's game. His rules and judgement is paramount, but there is the consideration of playability and the time it takes to create and define a character. Since I am like Kaz and "henchmen/hirelings" are considered to be as important (no distinction) from my main, I don't want to put a great deal of time and effort to make someone that I can't play all the time. It just isn't worth it to me. So given that - is there another potential character race/class people would want me to make tomorrow/tonight since I have the day off?


In game wrap up

Rave destroyed the flail but could not destroy the circlete, which is powerless without the flail. Paul wakes up a few turns later and is back to normal, just a little mad at Rave. I will post in character later.



"End of Adventure" are you sure? You have the Flail and the Coronette. We haven't destroyed either. We have an evil full level hafling cleric of Set walking around in our midst unaccompanied. He can create another holy symbol at anytime. From what I gather he should be a very high level cleric (how else could he cast a transdimensional spell). Bob used one of the most wimpiest magic items in the game a wand of negation against a warrior that kills most things within one round. This cleric should still be able to get spells from his diety as he hasn't yet trully betrayed him. Bob may actually learn how to play powerful NPC's and monsters against us in the future (rather than the way currently plays them as dumb as our NPC prisoners. (No offense Bob, but why would a high level cleric with an AC of 10 attack a well armed party with a wand that only negates one item's power for one round? That was trully suicide). We have no idea what has really been done to you, and just because you cast "remove curse" on yourself as soon as you picked up the Flail again you are cursed. You are supposedly suffering from megalomania - I don't know if Bob is going to have you play this insanity out correctly or not, but if he does force you to then you really have the potential to become a serious enemy rather than a friend. Look at other megalomaniacs in history - Gengis Khan, Nero, Napolean, Charles Manson, Hitler, Louis XIV, Jimmy Jones, James and Tammy Faye Baker. Sure today you are being nice and you can try and twist things around so you fake acting like a true megalomaniac, but a true one will rapidly crush anyone he thinks may be able to ursurp him, he won't feel that he needs others to help him rule. He will feel he can do it all himself so why should any powerful Dragonslayers be left alive? He will want to conquer and rule and be worshipped. If we don't do that then we don't deserve to live in your eyes.

Megalomania Definition:

1. greed for power: an excessive enjoyment in having power over other people and a craving for more of it

2. psychiatric disorder with delusions of power: a psychiatric disorder in which the patient experiences delusions of great power and importance

"The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most of the great men of history." [Bertrand Russell]

In addition to the common persecutory type of paranoid reaction, a number of others have been described, most notably paranoid grandiosity, or delusions of grandeur (also known as megalomania), characterized by the false belief that one is a superlative person.

The central theme of a group of psychotic disorders characterized by systematic delusions and of the nonpsychotic paranoid personality disorder. The word paranoia was used by the ancient Greeks, apparently in much the same sense as the modern popular term insanity. Since then it has had a variety of meanings. Toward the end of the 19th century it came to mean a delusional psychosis, in which the delusions develop slowly into a complex, intricate, and logically elaborated system, without hallucination and without general personality disorganization. In contemporary psychiatric practice, the term paranoia is generally reserved for all rare, extreme cases of chronic, fixed, and highly systematized delusions. All the rest are called paranoid disorders. Some psychiatrists, however, have come to doubt the validity of paranoia as a diagnostic category, claiming that what has in the past been considered paranoia is actually a variety of schizophrenia.

So...No I don't think we are yet at the END of this adventure!!!



One last thing before we truly move on from the "end" of one adventure. The way this one played out reminded me of another adventure that did not end the way we thought and had no reason to belive the action we took (or did not take) would have changed the course of the adventure. I posted it under the character Chrysania as it was Her Death that ended the adventure.




John? for those of us without inside information to what the Great and Powerful Bob? has on his mind, would you please give us a brief synopsis as to your insight into why Bob? took purchasing items away, and why he wants to start over? Could it be that at this point given any possible situation we have a magic item or spell to deal with it, or that we have characters that are significantly more powerful than their given XP level because of magic item acquisitions, or that we could possibly kill any god like creature given at least 10 min warning, or that we can successfully revive any single player from the great beyond with little consequence or challenge, or because other than killing us there is no challenge in our current game?



I can see how BOB might be a bit frustrated, especialy about any whining. We were involved in an adventure that could have killed the entire party and except for one undecided, everything is back to normal, more or less. It is also clear why we can no longer buy magic items with xp and Bob is considering restarting the campaign. Not sure what to do but enjoy the ride. Hope you do too.



With the goal of moving forward I propose a little story to quickly get the PWOC (Players With Out Characters) back into the game.

New Introduction If accepted all players would be able to play Friday, which should be mostly a bookkeeping day to make sure all characters are updated. Unfortunately according to the rules I read, Paul cannot reincarnate Morria without touching the corpse. While there is a contingency for letting players play without making new characters of their own, I suggest allowing players who may not have permanently lost their character to make new one as temporary in case we are able to save their main character.

I also want to propose and discuss a section of rules call Campaign Continuance for the creating new characters.

Until these issues are resolved and accepted, any planning is moot. But playing is still fun.



Guy I agree with you completely


ok ive been trying to avoid this but what is so wrong with 3rd edition?in some ways its a LOT easier than first and second edition now i dont claim to care much for the feats or skills part but combat, initiative and ac are all much easeir to figure out and you dont have to try and remember whether you need to add this mod or subtract that one. oh Fritz i believe rolemaster is still around just hard to find, just go to and you will find new things for rolemaster. Guy


Bob I was looking through your web site here and as always thinking about our ongoing projects (like John this stupid game occupies my mind when I am not busy). I see in bookstores D20 game system stuff everywhere. I don't recall seeing anything pertaining to Rolemaster.

In the eyes of the public is this gaming system dead?

With the advent of 4e has that improved any of the issues that was displeasing in 3e?

Wouldn't it be better to play a game system that is more popular since it would make obtaining new def files, or scripts easier, characters and monster info readily accessible, and even make publication for resale a possibility?



chuckles, for the 2nd twenty years of the Dragonslayers maybe we can have a different game system in place



Lorie, Just to clarify. I agree about using 3e. What we are talking about isn't the d20 game system. Just the "attack rolls" and "armor class". Nothing else would be used. It is simply to make all the math computations and all the definition adjustments alot easier. Right now we have to make adjustments for 2nd edition that is the "opposite" of what is described in the books or spells. For example - if it says you have a +3 to hit, well we have to "subtract" 3 not add 3 because of the way KloOge interprets attacks in the 2nd edition system. But in damage we don't have to make the adjustments. In saving throws we do have to make the adjustments. There are already description files that allow for all the "attack" variables that Bob is looking for. The problem is that when you try to "reverse" them for 2nd edition then most of them cause the system to crash. Bob is actually considering going over to the Role Master system, which I played a few times in college. It may be another 20 years before we actually make any changes, but until then are games will still be all "KloOged Up"


(1) Not in favor of d20 system. "Open Gaming" was a great experiment, but has been largely rejected in gaming circles due to its difficult interface (2) I am NOT in favor of modifying the current "1 round behind" rule that is in place. It's there for a reason, I don't want access to someone's character if they aren't there. I could be impacting them. In particular, Marco ran a character not so long ago that built up points and then POW things went wonky. You can count me out of that. (3) Congrats to the twins on graduating to the next 12 years of their life!!! (4) 3e sucks.



Ask Rob about the 'Last Resort' or maybe Jeff. If there is no Sun where does all the heat come that we were hidding from. It may not be a star, but there is a source.



I can live with that idea John. As an exception for extrodinary circumstances and prepared ahead of times. I do not like the idea of saying Lorie has free rein to use Paul any time that John is not available but in this case I can go with this if both sides agree.

One problem with the 'last resort option' (name that reference) of the teleport for Paul though John. There are no stars at night, what makes you think there is a sun to teleport into ?



I think that is a good idea John. I like the fact that Lori could give some input into what is happening to the rest of us. Of course it is up to Bob...Like you said, this is a dream.



After getting more detail on the plans outside D&D Friday, I would like to try an experiment. With the current situation where 1 round behind does not save my character and has a beter chance to kill us all within the sub-party, I would like to show how we could adjust the current rules. The biggest issue with the more recent proposal is that it turned the absent player's character into a party pack of skills and ablities. What I would like, has been done before, specificly allowing one player to play my character in my stead. If Lori is there and is willing, she would be my first choice, so she can participate in the direct situation, instead of waiting for her "phase" of the game. My second choice would be Fritz, who has the most experience with this type of character. I have already accepted as a last resort to attempt to grab the flail and teleport to the sun, so I feel either of them can do no worse for me or the party. I hope BOB approves.


Of course my favorite option would be for Rob to show up and play Paul. After all this is a dream.


Bob are you sure about all those changes. I would think that we could just switch to the D20 for attacks/combat without having to change anything else. Proficiency adjustments would now work properly for attacks and we wouldn't have to use negative instead of positive modifiers. The same would hold true for AC adjustments. I would say just look at using the d20 combat system and ignore the rest - no feats, no spell changes, no saving throw changes, no skill changes.

Congrats to your kids John. Have fun. Now you have a true Mortal Combat set there.



My kids will be in a ceramony celebrationg their compleation of Pre-K this Friday, so I will be at least a little late. Miranda is also celebrating today her passing the test to be a yellow belt in karate. Michael did not care for karate but now that we have a Wii, he is a little obsessed with boxing, so ot will be fun to see what hapends next.



I hear what you are saying Fritz about it would be easier to code, but I think it would change what we do so drastically that we would have to move to a 3~ version which I do not want to do. Every spell, proficiency etc would have to be checked for mods etc.

We will muddle through this slowly but surely.

I have been working on collecting my scatter scraps of paper notes about adventures into one document and that is finished now. I am coming up with my "next 100 days" plan to get particular things done and will get help as needed with those.



Bob I was looking at some of the changes that you want in the game (ongoing klooge projects). Would you consider changing to the D20 combat system? If you did alot of the changes you are looking for would be much easier to incorporate into our game. I am not saying change to 3.0 as far as skills, feats, spells etc. Just the combat part. It would probably be fairly easy to incorporate into our current game.



Mike is wrong with the finding traps information. Detecting traps is a simple roll that a thief can do. No danger, no using up any resources, etc. Removing traps is a different thing.



Still a maybe for me. But since my character isn't important in the grand scheme of things (being a thief, a thief with no tools, since scouting ahead hasn't seemed to be of much benifit, not a tank/warrior like Antarias, or a cleric like Moira or Kylia, not a mage like Paul, not super deadly in mass combat like Finglas) my presence really isn't a consideration.



I will be playing tonight, and Guy will be in when he gets home from work (after 8 your time, Mike).



Well for one, if a thief screws up their trap roll they can potentially get hurt. So that is the possibility of damage versus creat food and water being cast. I see a world of difference. I think we should go with the idea each player can determine how their round behinders will be used. I suppose some might go ahead and say play my henchman as you will. Someone might say I don't want my characters even breathing without me being there. That's each person's choice. I'm just pointing out that as of now, on this one adventure arc, we've hit this wall twice, and quite potentially more over the summer. I'd just like to say that AS A GROUP we should be allowed to revisit the round behind rule. It is easier for people to be out for a week or so when we have different time zones and such in an online game. I feel this could prevent some needless frustration if we can choose what we do while a round behind.

Also, since this is an issue right now, I'd like to know who is coming tonight. I think create food and water is creation sphere which Fin doesn't have, so unless Kaz will be there, we're all dead. I don't want to show up if that's the case because I will say we just don't play in that case. We've got Fritz on maybe, I will be there (unless we're stuck). Everyone else?



so what is the difference between "one minor spell like create water" and using one of the other characters that is one round behind to check for traps? Checking for traps uses even less of the character's resources, it is only a roll not like that player will miss it after all.


I have been away on vacation so I haven't been able to respond. I am in St. John and I am not sure I will be there tomorrow. Be that as it may we are going around in circles with this discussion.

I personally get the sense that people wish minor things to be available from other PC's if they are a round behind. To think that we are going to be killed by a miscast create water spell, means that even if Kaz was there we are so stupid and Bob is so malicious that he will have us be destroyed by it. Sure she may run out of spell slots to cast a cure light wound in the future, but if we were all DEAD because of dehydration who gives a crap?

It doesn't matter if you are high level or low level actually when it comes to simple things like this. To state we are SO SPECIALIZED that we inhibit ourselves means you are forgetting how we are STUCK playing 2nd Edition Rules. If we played 3rd or 4th edition, or Warhammer then we would be able to generate more flexible player characters. In those rules no one is LOCKED into a character class or LOCKED OUT OF a character class. That way we could make fighter turned cleric turned thief turned fighter again. The level issue is mainly for things like "Teleport" or "Raise Dead". Things that low level characters can't perform. Sure we can go back and do other things with other characters...possibly. What about those people who don't have 50 henchmen and hirelings, or a kingdom to run? What are they supposed to do. My characters are stuck in Semphar and are training so there is nothing I can do with them. Guy doesn't even have any other character.

Cooperation and consideration between players, AND between the DM and players is what is needed here. If you read articles on how to be a good DM, or how to create a great campaign, they all say the same thing... Be Flexible.

We have a rule. PC's are 1 round behind so they can't be involved in combat and life and death situations. We can't by our miscalculations kill Paul because we blundered into a room of basilisks. But why can't someone cast a levitate spell so we can climb up a wall? Sure if you want knock off a round or two on the spell's duration as the character comes up to the party to cast the spell then walks away to a safe distance.

To state that there are to many judgment calls for minor spells to be cast to me means you as a DM are going to be to inflexible. When I asked about water you stated that Moirra said she would be able to cast the spell to give us food and water. Consider Bob what judgment choices we would have made if we didn't think we had this available. Would we have left the Oasis? Would we have attacked the caravan guards? Would we have stolen a canteen? Would we have hitched a ride with the caravan and hired ourselves out as guards? Would we have just committed suicide on the spot?

I am just asking that you take the rule and be REASONABLE about it. It is our game rule. We aren't asking John to cast shadow monster while we fight Beholders. We aren't asking Kylia to cast fireball while we fight Yeti.

Yes if Finglas is stuck with a quest item, and he isn't going to be there one week, well we don't play if the quest item is critical to that part of the story. If he has a quest item and is going to be away for a month or a year, then pass the item on to someone else.


Because now that we can raise dead it's okay to kill our henchmen.

One - One henchman I killed with a fireball. And that was before we could raise the dead.



One point to make for people to consider.

Cast create water.

1 - what if the person doing it "for" another character does it wrong? John has lost more henchmen to his own fireballs than to other player's fireballs. What if you cast create water and you don't figure out the dimensions right and overflow your vessel? create a mudslide? kill a good creature by mistake with it? Who takes the physic hit for that? Moirra ? she wasn't here. Rave? he could care less what her god thinks of him.

2 - Kaz wants to cast a healing spell later on but can't because someone else used her slots up casting create water. Or cast as Paul now when he does not have his spell books and can not relearn spells.

There are just too many judgment calls on what the best use of the character is. That is the reason we have never allowed someone else to use someone's character. John brought up the example of the Basilisk from years gone by. That night the group did stop early after they were all turned to stone. Then the next week they got John and Rob to both show up and help out. Rob had not been at the game for several months at that point, so the similie is Sean currently.

The problem with the "Plot Magic Items" is harder to deal with because they are special to that person. Yes it causes wrinkles when that player is not there. But I doubt that Mike wants Vicki and Kaz making the choice of if Finglas throws the ring into the crack of doom or decides to keep it for himself. Or to come back with a missing hand "we just had to cut it off of you, you would not listen to reason".

There are also other things to do if a story line gets stalled. There are tons of small details to roleplay out back in the strongholds, henchmen to roleplay and flesh out, debates to have on where and what to do, research about what spells are available to each other, etc.

I do want everyone's opinions and thoughts on this, do not take my comments as any sort of final word to cut off debate.


I have to say I agree with some of what Fritz says, and disagree with other things.

For one, the whole ownership of plot items sucks. I had to give up a personal magic item, and a bunch of stuff from the party pack because we couldn't access the sword that we got with the express purpose of trading to the drow. Bob, you said that we did not have to give anything up, but then we would have been stuck for a week in drow town with nothing to do because the whole plot point of the adventure was a round behind. Then, that very week once we were done being punished for that, we faced the dilemma of what now? We had a quick and easy way to get home. ...Which relied on Kylia and Paul. So we had the choice of ending early or start walking back. What would be the point of walking back when at the start of the next week we'd have who we needed there and just port home?

Now, I have a major plot item. It looks like I'll be taking a family vacation sometime next month over a weekend. So is everyone expected to sit on their butts and twiddle their thumbs for that week? I'd say that if the item is needed while I'm not present, the group can make a consensus about what needs to be done with it, and we can have Fin just do whatever they say with it. But will Bob allow that?

On one hand, mwahahahaha I hold the power! It's my item now and I decide the fate of it and the world!!!! Who doesn't enjoy that control in some way? On the other hand, there are many players so how is it fair if I get to dictate the direction of the game whether by not doing what everyone agrees should be done or by not being there and putting the game on hold?

I think we as a group need to say right now that plot items do NOT belong to anyone. If it is a problem that a round behind character is carrying it, then I think that even if it can be used until it's purpose is served, it needs to be put in the party pack so there are no hang-ups because real life happened to someone.

On the note of teleport/pool, I feel that the pools/crystals belong to Kylia/Paul. They ultimately decide what to do with them. But, if Lorie/John give permission that their pools can be used to go somewhere or come back from that somewhere, I feel like that's an action Bob should allow the round behind character to perform. Once Lorie/John dictate the used of the pools, we should be able to use them so we're not stuck at the end of an adventure 1000 miles from home with no way to get back. That is a frustrating waste of good gaming time.

Same with non-combat type spells. In the situation of last week, I would put money down that Kaz would say we have permission to use Moirra to create water. So again, I think that each player should state how their character can be used when not there. I would say that everyone can use Fin for healing spells, healing/herb checks, religion checks, other spells like create water/purify food. I don't have a problem with that.

I feel like these uses of round behind characters are necissary with our game. They make/break the game in that we aren't stuck because a player can't make the game for a night. I do not feel like these things I said would help us make any puzzles or fights easier, because that would be kind of cheating in my book. I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions though.


Copying this from another section to hold the conversation here. From Fritz - Finally I agree that we have a standing rule of keeping PC's one round behind if the players are not available. But as we move along in levels and are becoming more and more indebted to abilities and items that people carry I believe we need to look at this rule with a bit of leniency. Simple things we planned on having available that is NON combat or game braking should be allowed. Things such as conjuring food and water, use of the teleporter, or even healing should be allowed if we aren't actively being accosted. If we continue with the rule that no one is allowed to participate if they are a round behind even with minor things this can potentially mean that we halt entire game days simply because someone is missing. For example I believe if all those at the game tonight had realized we wouldn't have access to Moirra casting create food and water spell, we wouldn't have moved from the oasis. If Finglas doesn't show up and we need the Flail we wont have it.

To sum it up there are rules, and then there are rules. The main reason we put absent players a round behind is so that we wouldn't abuse them and place them in bad combat situations in which they could possibly be killed. Not to stop us from playing. The way we have it now, it potentially will stop us from playing/surviving. For example if Kaz isn't going to show up next week I would suggest to everyone NOT to show up either. That way we won't run the risk of 3 main characters dieing simply because a first level, non combat spell couldn't be cast.

I will point out that now that you are higher level you should be able to survive better on your own. The only problem someone being one round behind creates now are the occasional times (Liam with the sword wanted by the Drow, potentially Finglas and the Flail if/when it is needed) that the plot point of the story line hinges around one character.

Being high level means you should have enough resources to handle all sorts of situations. If you are too hyper specialized towards fighting in close combat for example it is the players choice. So you should not complain that everyone is using arrows against you.

And for the record, I barely look at what you are or are not capable of as a group. I do adjust encounters on the fly to accommodate who is there that night to some degree, but not the overall story arcs. The last side story arc To Bite the Moon. I did not have any plan for you to get back to normal after being transformed. That is part of the challenge of the adventure for you. I have faith that I have smart players who will work together as a team to solve things.

Being high level usually means MORE cooperation and teamwork than less. The challenges are more complex and often have multiple possible solutions.

If anyone has not taken the time I would suggest reading some of the posts in the Dragonslayer Thoughts section where I talk about the mechanics of gaming more.



Actually, I DO plan to be there next week. However, if I can't show up because I've been hit by a truck and killed, and Bob lets the group die, I WILL come back and haunt him. Bob, you think you have computer issues NOW? HAH!



"[BOB] and if she does not show up next week you all die"

I feel for Kaz. Only once in my gaming life have I come close to the power/responsibility.

I missed one game where the rest of the party was turned to stone by a basilisk. Maybe it was bad rolls, maybe they missed their mage I played. Luckily, I was not alone, a good friend of mine and the game joined me and we made short work to the foul beast the next week.

Going into the dream, I accepted it was a death defying adventure, and it is ok if Paul dies. It is not so important if he dies during combat or due to a rock slide or a simple misunderstanding of the rules or situation. Living or dying for and with the team is a good feeling.



KAZ?!?!? KAZ?!?!?!

I thought I was your test dummy!!!!! I thought I was your KloOge whore?!?!?!

Fine if that is the way it is going to be, see if I ever offer you my services again for free!!!!



  • New modem installed
  • New router installed
  • Network rebuilt
  • Back on the Internet
  • Tested KloOge with Kaz

All systems are a go for tonight's game.



So, Guy and I are not positive we will be able to make it on Friday, and if we can, we are going to be splitting attention. My parents are coming to visit for several days, and expect to arrive on Friday night. I'm happy (to see them), yet bummed (to miss playing).



Bob before we start on Friday, could you type up a summary of what has happened up to this point in time with the 3 groups? I am a tiny bit confused on the actual sequence of events (nothing new I know). I read the script quickly and my vision is blurred without my glasses so things aren't always so crystal clear. Anyway, don't post it on the Web, but post it in the game as soon as we log on or make it a side text we can pull up and read at our lesure.





Do you want to test it out tonight? If so give me a call. I am free this evening.


5/12 Update on BOB's woes

The Router is being replaced by a lesser model on Tuesday (at least that is the UPS tracking claim) and I will install that as soon as I can.

THEN the modem went bad on Monday. AT&T is shipping a new one of those. I have the current one up and running but that was part of our problem on Friday.

I should have normal Internet connections from home as soon as that is fixed.

THEN when Belkin gets in my actual router model they have to ship that to me for me to install THAT router. That will be in two to three weeks in theory.

The overall results should be a normal game this Friday and hopefully better connections for all in the coming weeks. Amazingly enough up to this point both calls to AT&T were handled very well by the call center but Belkin needs serious help.


5/8 - 630 pm

Mike and I are trying to set up access to the game. If you can not log in grab me in IM.


5/8 Thank you Fritz for the offer. I will take you up on that one of these days.

Mike John's point is why I held off with the second point right away. I will have it there for everyone to see quickly and easily when they first log in and they get to make that choice.

There will be some chaos for the start of this adventure, that is part of the point.

Overall the adventure is fairly short, so we should have fun without it getting too crazy.



Lucky me, I get to split. One will take the deal and one will not. Once I know the deal, we will see if it is Paul or Kit to take the deal. ;)



Thanks for the offer Fritz. One of these weekend I will get over to your neck of the woods, but this week I've got an Orlando friend coming down, so I'll play from my house (assuming BOB can get up and running).

BOB, if you're reading this before the game, I'd like to ask you to please post the choice that everyone will need to make ahead of time. Kaz and I made our choices, so no one else's can interfere with ours, and it would save some game time (which i have a feeling we'll need all of it to get organized) if everyone knows going in whether they take the deal or not.




I would offer you the oportunity of course to utilize my home for your internet access. Of course Mike is welcome to come over as well. As I have stated I have several computers (not all hooked up yet - but that will take no time at all) that we could use. I have a 1 gig router and fast internet access.

The only issue would be that this weekend I would have to board one or both of you in the second (unfinished) guess room with some air mattresses (which I have), as my Aunt is spending a week here visiting and she gets the good guest room.

Of course if this is logistically or chronilogically difficult or impossible for you the offer is open any time in the future. You guys are welcome to come down any weekend that you want to.


Potential problem on Friday

My router died last night. I should be able to get back on the Internet on Thursday and if so should be able to run the game. BUT I am not sure I will be able to have Mike at the house because there might not be a network. I will keep everyone posted as I can.

I am working on Friday so will be able to log in from work and post here if I am not able to get things working at all and we have to postpone the game.

Sorry all, at least it has a lifetime warranty on it. Grins, now lets see how they try to wiggle out of it.



"Emo"...Yep seen 'em, hate 'em, think we oughta shoot 'em...(I'm not prejudiced...just a bigot!!!)



hahaha. emporer finglas the first has a nice ring to it, but it'd be an empire of slow humans out in the middle of the sand dunes where no forests grow. screw that shyte.

i really don't remember that happening. maybe it was an out week for me. i know there was a week or two in that dungeon i didn't make it.

emo is a whole subculture of whiney girly boys and girls. you've definately seen them. they're like the new goth. shop at hot topic, listen to whiney sad songs, bloody ALL of them (girls and boys) have the same hairstyle, combed over one eye. all in all, wasted space breathing up our air.

the felix felicitous would probably help fin's wish go his way. hell, it couldn't hurt. i'm also hoping that since fin lost levels due to bob CHEATING and being unclear and had fin chasing after boat number two he'll go easy on the wording.

good to know we have an in. at least two people from the party can research in semphar. you asked before and i forgot to answer, i don't know what the flail does to affect me. bob told me it'll happen in stages and he'll screw me over as time goes by. maybe we can work with the empty feeling.

we can't port IN to krazytown because we can't port in and out of the underdark. we've gone through that with bob in the past. we can planeshift out, but not so much in.

if lorie isn't with us to planeshift us i agree with you fritz. bob is just going to have to dm off the cuff and not have all his fancy klooge stuff set up (which never work anyway stupid kludge). there's no point to start walking back up. we'll just have to sit in krazytown like the turd in the punchbowl and make a nuissance of ourselves.



The first time Fin died in the Chaos dungeon Mobuto had befriended a ghost mage. The ghost mage had a limited wish spell. In order to get him to use it on Finglas, Mobuto had to convince him of your "goodness", and then promised to indenture himself to him and as well as be his apprentice and to bring him new books regularly to read. Whenever he left the group that was where he had to go, back to that level of the Chaos dungeon. I am not sure Finglas ever realized what happened. I guess you must have died a second time down there. Anyway past is past but it may make Fin more amendable to being courteous about Ailea towards Meleager.

By the way what does "emo" mean?

I agree with you I would wish that you had "never been drained of life energy levels by the wraiths" or "that during the combat the wraiths had not been successful in attacking you or anyone in the party and draining you of life energy levels". Since "experienc" or "experience points" isn't a valid roleplaying issue for PC's I would probably refrain from using that terminology. I would ask Bob though about that as maybe he allowed it to be used in the past. I have never done it so I am not sure how he would play it.

Mentor and Val'Iant both are from the mages guild in Semphar so if needed we can use them as access to the library.

I agree it would be silly to start walking and then plane shifted back so if Lorie and John both can be there tonight that would be awesome as always. If not Bob better be prepared for me to cause CHAOS IN KAZEFRYN!!! Hey that would be a great title for the next adventure - "CHAOS IN KAZEFRYN".

I could also give you a potion that increases your luck. Now it is mainly for guarenteeing rolls, but maybe Bob would agree that it made your wish go the way you wanted it to. For some reason I had always thought there was a "potion of restoration" but I couldn't find it anywhere. I wonder if it was in first edition?

Since we are now familiar with Kazefryn is there a reason that they can't point one of the pools to it's location now or in the future so we don't have to do all that trecking that Fin hates...Now I like it, but just thinking for the party.

Personally I wish Bob wouldn't make the beholders so wimpy and stupid, they have more deadly powers than just antimagic...maybe the third set will learn from the failures of the first 2...then again hopefully not.

Now one of the things Bob said was that you/Meleager felt as if something was missing. Maybe if you concentrate on that feeling it will direct us to where we need to go. Obviously it won't work down here, but maybe when we get to the surface it will. Of course seeing as how it seems to be a "Flail of Pharohs" maybe it will help you conquer an empire!!!! Think about it Emperor Finglas the First!!!



Fritz, I might be forgetting something, but when Fin died in the Chaos Dungeon I did a side bit of roleplay with Bob while i was running Mal to resurrect Fin. It all culminated in my guest DM adventure I ran while Bob was off in Alaska trying to get mauled by grizzley bears.

As for the resurrection spell, it is Necromantic, so Fin could be uplifted to cast it on himself except... he's two levels too low. Fun, ain't it? Kylia can't cast it. I was planning on having Ant run with the group while Fin and Val did their own quest on the side again as a favor to another priest to cast it on Fin, but now Fin's got a time limit on him with this flail of the emo boys.

For the wish, it would take two restore spells. I'm not at home, but as I recall the restore spell will restore one lost level per casting. So I might be able to wish for two restores to be cast on Fin, but I thought just asking for one thing like "I wish I was never drained of power by wraiths" ect. would be a better idea. ::shrug:: I suppose worst comes to worst If Fin's wording doesn't work Ant can make a wish, too.

Now we know we need Kylia to planeshift us back, so I hope Lorie comes. If not we can start walking out, but then next week when she does show up, she could just shift us back. Which means walking out is kind of a silly thing to even start. Not to mention this place is dangerous enough without having to do more trips than necissary. We know we have to bloody come back AGAIN as it is once the flail is destroyed. Also, Fritz, keep in mind we're on a time limit. The drow said she'd keep emo boy here for 6 months. Then he can go wherever he wants. So it might be best for us to complete the quest, and get back down there within that time limit.

I don't remember anything about Semphar having a big ass library, but if it does, we should also as you said pool there and ask to do research there as well. After all, the Phi should be friendly enough towards us after what we did to help him. And if he isn't so help me, I will start up the Wild Fire Giant Capture and Release Program. I will go capture some giants, and release them back into that volcano temple... Don't make me do it Bob.



But stirring things up is FUN!!


I will double check my notes but I do not think I missed any of the normal human proficiencies. I did change some that I did not want duplicated to keep certain skills in certain races or classes.

As to the Maps Fritz actually has them all, it is one of those always wanting to do but never finding the time projects for me. But with your pool/teleport traveling lately it really doesn't matter where each place is, they are all just a blip away.

You do not have free rein to explore Kazefryn, she ended your conversation with you leaving to go. She does not want you hanging around, and there is no common ground like a market for you to visit. There is only the various 'island' locations where different races live. She does not want you mixing and stirring up things.

The links are on the adventure page, the easiest way to get there is from the main News & Updates page when you come to the site. There is a link for both the current Dragonslayer Era and the Adventure Story arc. The pages are all set up for you to use to keep track of the speculations about the Curse of the Flail.



Bob is there anyway for you to put a subheading under "Player Communication" for KFIC and KFOC? That way instead of having to remember to search the site for it we could find it located easily on the left hand side of the page? or even another link so it goes to a PC page then we can choose either general player communication or one of the others?



Bob is there anyplace where a description of each proficiency is located?

Also you have "Danger Sense" as being humanoid only, but it is also barbarian proficiency. How about "enhanced sense of smell" or "enhancened natural armor", they are both barbarian proficiencies with crossover to other classes and races. You are also missing "back checking" and "climbing" barbarian skills. I know your list is probably still "a work in progress" but I thought you might want to add those in.



Well again I am not for just "blipping" back home. We have actually been given the green light to walk around Kazefryn and I would like to take the opportunity to explore a bit. I know Finglas "Never" wants to do so, but not having John and Lorie around to take us back might be a blessing in this case as far as that is concerned. (No I am not desiring for them not to show up. I want them to be there, just looking at a way to force Fin to have to play in Kazefryn) Plus we need both of them to take us all home so need to hear if they will both be there tomorrow.

I don't know how you are being destroyed or driven insane by the flail, nor how your amulet helps but if you can fill us in that would make decision making easier. As far as wishing is concerned for your levels has it ever been done before? Is Fin doing the wishing or one of his alts? Bibo I believe did an experience point wish before. Anyone remember how he did it? Otherwise I would suggest something like "I wish the wraiths had not been successful in draining me of my levels"...But then Bob would make them Vampires and you would lose double...As far as wishing for "Restoration" how many will he need to get back to full? One or 2? Is restoration a level based spell that is within someone's sphere of influence such as Kylia? If so couldn't we just have Wilson and a bunch of accolytes get together, raise her effective level, and then have her cast it thereby saving your wish for later? I remember Mobuto using his limited wish on Finglas to bring him back from the dead (I know Finglas still doesn't appreciate his assistance in that), but I believe I said something about taking Finglas back to the point he was before he was killed.

As far as research on the Flail is concerned I know there is a big library in Wolfspack, but there is also one in Semphar. I don't know where this place is in relationship to Wolfspack or Semphar. It would be nice if we just had a simple "link" to get to the map rather than having to go through the entire description chain to figure out where someplace is located. Since we aren't as familiar with the wold as Bob is we can't picture where anything is located as easily as he can. Anyway, since Semphar is near the "desert" as far as I know they may have more information on Manetho than Wolfspack.



The simplest wish is best, more like "I wish for Restoration to be cast upon me"

As far as Friday, I can show up but i can not plane shift. I can only get back home from other planes. Then I can Blip to the library in the far off land that we want to go and use Toungs to do research in the native language of the maker of the "blesed" maigic item.


PS: Plan on taking my ultra small army of followers to the pool because they all love Paul so much, they just wish he had a few more magic items.

No Wait, are you sure Moirra would not wish Paul was the same religon as her? This is not disney, you can wish for someone to fall in love with you, if you want. But still no wishing for more wishes.


Moirra is NG, so I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but I can't really think of something she wants to wish for.

As far as Finglas' wish, how about wishing to be in the same physical and mental state he was in prior to being touched by wraiths? Would that cover the lost levels and so forth?



So for those of you who don't know, Fin accepted a relic from that douche bag loser emo boy in the underdark. It will slowly drive him insane and kill him. But he's got some defense because he's got an Aasimon strapped around his neck that'll help keep him sane. That's why I had him take it over Moirra. So assuming John/Lorie is in Friday I say we plane shift back home like we did last time, then I'm planning on sending a small army of followers to Wolfspack to do research. First item of research is on the Flail of the Desert Kings, which this is. Then on the great whatever they were pharoes who made it, and their empire. I'm guessing all the info we'll find in Wolfspack is on the wiki already. The big item I believe that needs to be researched isn't the flail itself, but a sage who can tell us what it is. I believe that a sage in the proper field of study will know more about the stupid stick than the library will. I also want to take a quick jaunt down to the well to get Fin's ::coughbobcheats:: levels back with a wish.

"I wish I was never drained of power." "I wish I was never touched by wraiths." Something along those lines. Any suggestions would help, but I'd like to avoid making next Friday a wish wording session. Also, to the newbs who have never been down there, if you have a wish for your character, let's get thinking about it. So far Ant has not initiated a conversation with it, and if Moirra is LG I don't think she has, either.



Only 3 more encounters to go before you hit the lake on this journey. Should take one or two sessions to finish all that and get to Khazefryn to talk with Meleager. Then my guess is you are going to use the short cut through the planes again to get back out of the Underdark. That takes us to the last of the intertwining adventures. In real dates we are looking at May 8th as the start of that story arc.

It looks to me that we are on track for the big final story arc to start right after I get back from Anticipation in August. This will be the longest running of the Dragonslayer Eras and one of the most complicated to piece together. I am looking forward to a fun and challenging summer and fall.

Of course rocks could fall on your head and everyone dies which would put everything on a whole new track.....



I may not have been playing D&D for over a decade, but I've been roleplaying in a combination of MUDs and D&D for at least that long. Roleplaying is a very, very personal thing that should only be decided by the person playing the character. If someone doesn't like the way a character is roleplayed, that's their own personal preference, but it's not their character to say.

That being said, I have no issues with the way Paul is played. If he doesn't feel like a group leader but is being put into that role often enough, then perhaps he feels the need to point out that he isn't a Dragonslayer and is only along for the ride.

Perhaps Finglas is not a priest who feels the need to perform the healing parts of the priestly duties. If that's the case, it's Mike's choice to play it that way (but seriously, if that's the deal, you can't get pissed off when people forget your priestliness!) and no one else's place to say it's wrong.

I may be still learning what Moirra's spells are and where they might come in handy and possibly do the unexpected, but I sure as hell know how she feels about different things and what she's thinking. And I'd be pretty irked if someone came along and told me I was playing her wrong!

John, just do with Paul what you do with him. You know what's in his head better than anyone else in the game does. Lighten up, people.


I now understand why this recent discussion feels so familiar, even beyond the action vs. role-playing concept. From the beginning, Paul never saw himself as a leader. (S)He was drow only concerned with personal power. He followed Lady Kylia and help out when needed. Even when he “established a stronghold”, he did not want to rule a country or kingdom, he developed a protectorate. When he does “take charge”, he generally takes care of things himself. Everyone thinks because of his level and who I am that Paul is a leader. If it sounds a familiar issues for me it is, I had the same issue I had with Chonny. Not that Chonny had an issue of being a leader. No one accepted him as a priest. I developed and role-played him as a priest even though by the rules, his class was fighter mage. It was much more fun because we had more time to role-play and the light hearted nature of the conflict. I hope to be able to play Paul as I have envisioned and continue to develop as time permits.




Very good conversations on the Deep Dark Dangerous threads. I like that there is a growing unease about how the group is doing. This is all part of the master plan for this Era and we are not quite two thirds of the way done. After you complete the full Deep Dark Dangerous section of Trade Wars you will be at the Climax of the cycle. For those who took literature way too long ago, you can go look that up. I do try hard to make the cycles match expected forms.

For those worried about the power level of the group rest assured I have plans for many contingencies. *evil chuckle*


Enough said


It might be, but you never know. He's had little shit like that that he's mentioned just in case we wish to pursue it. He's given all kinds of clues in morning reports that we've never done anything with, then later on brings them back. He mentioned a long time ago about a problem in the avareil mountain near where Finglas is from, and we haven't done anything with that yet. But we're always making stuff it seems, so any kind of precious metals stockpile we can build is a good thing.


actually i think that might have been Bobs intention,setting up the hook for the next adventure that is. Then again he might have just been messing with our heads lol. Guy


Damnit John, you interrupted. There was interesting silver. silver mixed with what? if it makes the dwarves interested, it'd probably really good or really bad. And now we don't know.

I for one think we should pursue the opening of new mine shafts when we're done with the underdark. The mine belongs to the DS, right? We should profit from it.


3/8 So that everyone knows where things stand.

The group is in Morten, ready to go back down into the Underdark. Vicki's new character has been introduced. Guy's new character has more of a story. Everyone has the one character going along on this trip, but only 2 dwarven guides this time. Price is still being negotiated.

If Sean or Melissa or Jeff or Robert or whoever would like to ease back into play these upcoming weeks will be ideal for you.

The adventure will be similar to the last journey but there will be different encounters, different areas, and a couple of repeats as the paths intertwine. XP has been awarded to everyone for all story arcs up to the current campaign date. The last session had morning reports again, when you get the chance to peruse the logs you can see what transpired.

See everyone on Friday.



I am in agreement with Mike, here. We've already done the short way and seen what there is to see, although I don't doubt there are some things we missed. Yes, we've cleared some issues, and no, not all of them will have returned, but I'd like to see what else is down there.



I personally want to go back the long way just to see what that side has to offer us. I find the idea of going past the same challenges we've already conquered to be a boring prospect. Here's the ooze. Let's do it the same way we did it before. Here's the bridge. Clear off the fishers, then go across one at a time. ect, ect, ect.

In character Fin would probably go for the long way as well considering we lost two party members the short way. We have concievably cleared those threats, yes, but he still wouldn't want to go that same way. What is another week and a half when we've already cut out the exit time? It's not like the drow expect us back within the week or anything anyway.



but... but... but... I'm not the leader. What, How, Where, Why is the party going? If Paul has no standing orders he may really piss off the leaders who are only one round behind. The question is how long can he keep one round ahead of the three power-houses of Kylia, Fin and Ant?


Seriously, is there a party concensus on long way or short way?


This week (03/06) the group will be missing Lorie and Mike. John has already (on the in character page for Deep Dark Dangerous gotten everyone back to Gon. We will start there and either introduce Vicki's new character and or deal with any small things happening before someone (John if he attends) can make it in to use the pool to go back to Morten and start the journey back down into the Underdark.


well you better add me to the list as well kaz isnt the only person in the house that plays WoW


So how much is 100 UDE points worth? ja


Half of us are WoW players. Lorie, Kaz, Beth, and myself.

As for Bob, that's what he gets for trying to get healthy. And now, since he's injured his hand we're going to have to deal with uber Anstett typing. Woe is we.



Any WOW players out their, I have a code for UDE for the online game from cards I bought. I can wait until you guest DM for a fair trade. What are they worth to you?

and just so you all know, BOB was banged up when he was hit while riding his bike to work. Some lacerations and a dislocated shoulder but he still taught a class the same day so take that as you will.



A request please.

If everyone could look at your name under Roll Call and be sure that all the characters you have played are listed there, along with links to pages for each of them. They should also be listed on the Character Stories page please.

I am trying to make sure that the old threads I weave back into the story lines are meaningful and all the details that we can link together help.

Thank you



In a flash of brilliance and a little tweaking, I think I have come up with the most creative, annoying, at times most powerful and others most vulnerable character to play in D&D. Let me introduce you to The Priest of Slience


Going to be out 3/6 due to Flogging Molley


Lots going on with the Deep Dark Dangerous Out of Character page

Hello? Pictures?

We want to see pictures


I will not be playing this week. I will be hanging out with a hot german gypsy chick. Go ahead and be jealous guys.


A belated happy 2009 to everyone. I am so sorry that i have been MIA for the last few months (again!). Between work and vacations to warm and sunny places, I have not been around much on Friday nights. I have to work the next few Friday nights. Hopefully by February I will be back. Sounds like there have been some interesting turns (as usual). Barb

22) Playing with Mike, kids lose!

Am I right?


13) Can play with kids every day of the week, kids up by 3
14) Dealing with rule lawyers, kids up by 4
15) If game gets out of hand can put kids to bed and turn on the TV, kids up by 5
16) If game gets out of hand can log off and play Dungeon Siege, kids up by 4
17) Dealing with KloOge, kids up by 7
18) The look in your children's eyes when they see you, kids up by 8
19) The look in Bob's eyes when he kills your character, kids up by 9
20) The stories you get to tell in the future, kids up by 9
21) Being considered and old geek by your neighbors and coworkers, kids up by 10

Take a look in the BOB's links section for the Chatty DM blog, he talks there about playing with his kids versus playing with friends also.



Role-playing with BOB vs. Role-playing with Michael & Miranda

1) Still playing with family
2) Still do not get to choose what we play
3) With the kids I get to use funny voices, kids plus 1
4) Don’t understand the rules in either game
5) Never right in either game
6) Much more combat in game with kids, kids up 2
7) Get to use figurines in game with kids, kids up 3
8) Get to use Force in kid’s game, kids up 4
9) Get to drink in BOB’s game, kids up by 3
10) Get to flirt and suggestive talk in Bob’s game, kids up by 2
11) More characters to play with kids, kids up by 3
12) Talk to adults in BOB’s game, kids up by 2

What am I missing?

The Challenge of Champions is a New Years festival held near Wolfspack. It pits adventuring groups against each other in challenges that require more thought and puzzle solving than brute force challenges. The events are balanced to be level neutral and the only magic allowed is what is provided in the actual challenges. They are also timed with points awarded based on how much is completed.

It is a fun thing, the last time I remember running it the Dragonslayers divided up into two four man teams and came in 2nd and 8th.

It would be interesting to run in KloOge, some of the events required that the contestants could not communicate with each other, etc. It is definitely a good thought and worth the effort to recreate and run.

BOB sixth day of the first month of the two thousand and ninth year of the start of the gregorian calendar


What is a "Challenge of Champions"?


I like that idea of the Challenge of Champions again Lor. Do you think we should wait and run it with the main characters? or run it with the henchmen?

And yes the group is still 'on track' and is expecting the grey ooze to be found soon along this path.



No Lor we didn't veer off the path per say, but there was a bit of miscommunication. Apparently all Naolo could give us was a general direction. There were apparently 3 "branches" to this general direction we could take. 1) Towards where the derro were creating a holy site, 2) the grey ooze path, and 3) an unknown path.

Since it had been your desire to go the route the derro didn't want us to take we went down that way first. We didn't go far before the path was obstructed. We were blocked by boulder traps (but no physical encounters with derro) and worked our way back to the intersection point where we met the derro. I misspoke myself earlier and we decided to go the way of the grey ooze (as you pointed out "the known path"). So far we have encountered another Purple Worm, and a bat swarm being controlled by 3 Man sized bats with stinger tails. We have yet to come across the grey ooze despite going a sizeable distance to date. By nature of the threat we have taken a bit of damage from the swarm, but little in way of damage from those controlling them or the purple worm.


5 January 2009

Happy New Year to all of you.

My apologies for missing Friday's session. I'm afraid I've got this cold / sinus thing that's going around and I just have been absolutely drained.

In any case, I'm really surprised to see that there is any question about direction to the party. Our path was pretty well laid out for us and Naola has been a solid guide to date. Or, did we veer from the path that was laid out and we're trying to get back? Had Kylia been there, she would have defered to our guide. In any case, let's plan to get on a path where we KNOW what we're walking into and deal with the ooze. Seems like a reasonable course.

Regarding the holidays, I don't think BOB's list was intended to be an exhaustive list. Roadhaven, given it's nature, ALWAYS has some sort of holiday going on. It has most of the Celtic pantheon represented through Kylia's acolytes and followers so they are usually up to something. Obviously, Gobinihu's come first but there is more or less something festive celebrated. Also, the dwarves across the street are usually up to no good celebrating the discovery of a mine or they hit their hammer on something interesting so you can wander over there if Roadhaven ever seems too quiet.

BOB, I think the current incarnation of the Dragonslayers should plan to do the New Years' challenge this year... that was really a great evening where the party was split (for a good reason) and kept us on our toes thinking creatively.



Hey Bob I saw you added a section on Holidays to your world, but I think you may have missed a couple. I distinctly remember that there is a holiday in Pagmalia that was started by Reginald Pagmalia in honor of the founding of the town, which is now also in honor of his death. The first holiday also being the day he died fighting that boar with a spear. Also does Roadhaven have any holidays?

Next how did the rest of the night go with those bats? Anyone know what kind of bats those large ones with tails were? What is our next move? Do we continue the way we are going or do we need to back track and deal with the grey ooze after all?



Man, it feels funny to be typing 2009 now... anyhow, I'm glad Marco is visiting this week, and I sure hope you all do well. I had news recently that I shall likely be out of town tomorrow. I will keep someone informed as I get closer to game time on what my whereabouts are.


PS. Bob, how nice of you to remember the rule of "I" before "E" except after "C"... thing is, it doesn't apply to weird words ;)

I was the one who said we should add links with new topics or when Fritz goes on one of his rants - Who?

Just so everyone knows Marco is in town and will be at the house this upcoming (01/02/09) session so be prepared for some lag from the real life people. I apologize in advance to those who can not make it to the house that night.

And Thank you to John for inspiring me (or reminding me) to create the Holidays page. If anyone has a small religious holiday or secular holiday they want to add to the list please feel free. Or add in how a particular area celebrates one of the established ones. I will be adding to that list as I get the inspiration and time.


01/01/09 You will notice that this page loads a lot faster now. I have moved all of the discussions from 2008 into their own archive. I may do that more often in 2009, we will see how things go. Thank you all for a great time this past year, and I look forward to some great adventures in the upcoming years.