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Player Communication

This page is for news, announcements, game discussions, and issues that might have previously gone into emails. Anyone can start a topic or add to one already started. Please type four dashes after your name and before starting your message so it is easy for everyone to see each person’s contributions.


Archives: 2008 - 2009 - 2010 - 2011 - 2012 - 2013 - 2014 - 2015 - 2016 - 2017 - 2018


11/29 Spring

Will be late but will be there. Running short on sleep and have to work after the game.


11/3 Carissa

Required: Adding on to Lisa's comments in CT-OOC to make sure people see it, if you missed on Friday, more than the summary which will eventually be done, please go to the chat (this one right here) and read the giant wall of text at the very end. Also adding a reminder that this link, this long one right here is your best friend so click this long, long link if you didn't know this page existed. Okay?

Optional: follow up by reading Macbeth. There will be a pop quiz at the beginning of session on Friday.


11/1 Ryan

My wife surprised me with tickets to something. Unfortunately, I won't be able to come to session this week. Sorry about that. Hope the rest of you have fun.


10/19 BOB

I updated the pages for Dragon Fen so that every town can have it's own unique page. There are other towns out there called Mist Garden for example, this makes sure we keep all the right information together about each Estate.

Next week we start in the afternoon traveling to Scary. What I remember from the conversations was that you are planning on leaving the wagon and horses there and then venturing into the Old Forest to try and find the ambush site.


10/18/2019

I apologize but I won't be able to come online tonight. Something has popped up. Sorry All

- Michael Harmon


10/18 Ryan

Sorry but I won't be able to come to today's session. I should hopefully be back on track for next week, though.


10/11 Carissa

I should have posted this an hour ago, but some of us are town building on Discord tonight for those feeling withdraws.


9-27 BOB

We are on track for a full weekend tonight and tomorrow.

I will not be near the computer right away at 7 tonight but as always the game is up and ready for everyone to settle in and make plans or tweak characters etc.


9 - 18 Michael Harmon

Guys, I am an idiot i'm so sorry. I mixed up our game days. I guess I wont be in this weekend for obvious reasons. Sorry about that. I'll try and remember what the actual non game days are. :)

- Michael


9-8 BOB

Notes for roleplaying over the next couple of sessions.

  • Carissa - Elves know The Old Forest as the Birnham Woods, the home of high elves
  • Ryan - Skarp would have traveled this path from the Central Mountains down through Scary, Frogmorton, Bree and into Loosend on his original journey down into Drillian. His group would have traveled mostly at night and avoided most of the people they could.
  • Lisa - Indigo would know what is here on the site for the South Shire and would have told Branwyn during his telling tales of home

9-8 BOB

John, did you mean to create a whole new section of the wiki for that path magic example mage?

By using periods in page names it creates a new section outside of "Main" where all the other pages are that we link to and from.

JOHN: No, I was just looking at the links as it was listed. You can put where you want.


9/7 Carissa

Last night I dreamed that, in retribution for not giving the old crone a coin, we had to give her one of our most cherished possessions. Now, it's a little fuzzy (as dreams tend to sometimes be) on if it was real-life we owed her, character owed her, or if it was actually Bob we owed (and if he's really an old crone). The game doesn't always bleed into my dreams, but I guess not giving her a coin now weighs on my subconscious.

But she also called me a bitch so, you know, screw her.

(And yes, I did text this to Bob, and no, he didn't say this wasn't going to happen so...)

[Reponse from Michael Harmon] Carissa, this may be the funniest thing I've read in like a month. I gave a dollar to a homeless guy a few days ago and he swore at me. I just shrugged. Guy probably had mental issues, but you posting this reminded me of the old hag. :)


8-30 BOB

I will be updating the XP totals soon, likely this week.


8-29 BOB

We are playing tomorrow (8-30) the hurricane is still a couple of days away.


8/12 Carissa

Sorry, all. Work and life has gotten a little crazy. I'll do what I can to keep up, read chats, ect, but please don't expect me to be 100% back in game yet and fully able to contribute. I'm not sure when that'll change (and California being brought up yet again for next month possibility - but things are slowing down, so also maybe not. Again.).

And on that note, should be there for pre-Birthday and Birthday games, but no clue as of yet if I'll be there the whole time (all depends on California). Will keep you updated.


8/7 Mario

Yes, I will attend the Birthday game, both days, probably in person.

As for giving Black Cloak his just dues, I don't think this is a time sensitive thing. Sure, emotions are high now, but we have characters who, collectively, could take down three Black Cloaks, if all were present, and, dare I say, we had half a plan. So dueling or confronting him at a funeral, or anywhere else where we don't have an advantage, would be foolish. We don't have anything to prove right this moment.

I do think he should get his, very painfully. Possibly with Tyberius's help. That would be rewarding.

-- I *like* this idea, and I bet it's one Branwyn could get behind once the idea is brought up. Also, is Counterspelling a thing in 2.5? If so, Bran could just sit back and counterspell everything BC tries to do, while Tiberius demonstrates up close and personal what an experienced fighter can do to the humanoid body. - TMO


8/6 Spring Yes to the Birthday Game.


8/4 Lisa Speaking for myself, I decided that knowing the Queen is not wanting Bran to attack someone at the funeral and her potentially sicking Jenn on Branwyn to stop her makes attacking Black Cloak there not a good idea. There is a difference.

I have looked at the Spell Duels page a couple of different times and again today. It is way, way too complicated for me to get a good understanding how it works in reality and so my inclination is to blow it off. Besides, dueling sounds like it doesnít favor Branwyn, who has no defensive spells. Why in the world would she want to go into a duel with a 100 rules and on top of that, is a format that doesnít work in her favor?

So all that being said, taking a big group to Loosend is kind of a silly trip that could really just be clicked off to there, roleplay anything we need to get done in the city and then get home again.

Unless Ö the non-murderous portions of the group want to attend the funeral. Anyone with a modicum of self-control can attend the funeral and those that canít help but attacking people on sight can go to Loosend.

Yes, planning on showing up to the Birthday game.


8-4 BOB

I think we have worked through all the possible details for the trip to Loosend and the attempt to recover Tiberius. Everyone has a character, you have a plan to get there as quickly as possible. It seems you have also decided that assaulting Black Cloak at the funeral of his aunt is not a good thing.

If you do want to punish him directly there is the option of the Spell Duels to use. I know Lisa said that Red Cloak just cast on the group as well as what Witherbane did but that would not be acceptable with the Queen's group. You can use the Spell Duels rules if you want to do damage to him. All sorts of options are available as a reward for winning. Duels can be complicated but allows you to keep the conflict focused. Blasting the loser to another plane of existence might be more satisfying.... provided Branwyn does come out the winner. You can use the funeral to establish when a duel will occur so you do not have to complete it next week.

We will have 6 straight sessions at least before the Birthday Game 2019. Do we know who will be here for that yet?


7-31 Ryan

Sorry all, but I will be covering a coworker's shifts and going on vacation for the next three weeks and won't be able to attend sessions during that time. I will be ready to join up again on the 23rd of August (assuming that you guys will take me back :grin:). Good luck to you all in the meantime.


7-25 BOB

Thank you Mario


7-24 BOB

I just got an email from my internet provider that Friday the 26th they will be restarting thier system for maintence. It is supposed to be done by 6 am Friday morning but that will mean Klooge will not be available for people to log into during that time and maybe afterwards. Normally it can take a modem reset after they do those sorts of things. I am not at home this week so will not be able to reset it until Sunday.

We are not playing this week so it will not disrupt a session just the option to log in and check on things for a day or two.


7-2 BOB

It looks to me that this next session will be getting back to Dragon Fen and then breaking the news to Branwyn, dealing with all sorts of fall out and organizing what you need to handle the current situation.

Everyone should be coming in planning on doing lots of roleplaying between the various characters. TMO will have lots of back and forth also.

This next session and a half looks to me to be much more dependent on all the players with me only adding a line or three as I answer questions.

  • Getting home safely
  • Telling Branwyn the results of your trip
  • Deciding among everyone what the best course of action is
    • Leaving The Mist will result in new chances for certain factions to find Branwyn for example
    • What does Ilero do with his recruits, rolling for new ones will likely not happen unless you click off over a week
    • Michael and Mario might be introducing new characters
  • Shi coming back and speaking with the group for the first time since dying
  • Time may or may not be an issue
    • dependent on length of time someone can be dead before being brought back
  • The group should make very sure they know what they will do with any answers they ask significant NPCs like the Queen, Jenn, Red Cloak, etc.

This can take two sessions to work though lots of details both In Character and Out of Character. The group has LOTS of moving parts now so making sure you get to work through things over the next couple of sessions.

Do not hurry things because it seems slow or you do not want to plan. If you need to make plans to get individuals to log on during the week to check things or roll checks etc. KloOge will be up all week for people to handle tasks.

This is what it is like to have high level characters in a campaign. Which is one of the reasons why Lisa is looking forward to just going to Hell and dealing with mostly straight forward issues. :)


7/2 Carissa

Truncated text message conversation:

Carissa: Ancien definitely gives Ilero a run for his money on trying to understand him sometimes. Future campaign idea: visit to a treant in Blackwater. We wouldn't understand a single word of it, but it'd be memorable!

BOB: LOL you need to post that to the site.

So who's game??

(And here I was just thinking to myself "TMO - never play a druid in this campaign. I just don't understand plant." - TMO)

6-29 Lisa

Here are my thoughts on the two main issues brought up below. I will be posting in OOC on the events of last night later.

Goals of the Trip: I think there was a conflict in what Bob thought the goal was and what players thought it was. To Skarp, this was the investigation of his lost friends that heíd waited months for. How could he see the Face Stealer and potential dwarf bones and not want to keep going if we could? For the rest of us, we are used to completing adventures, not spotting danger and running home to tell the ďbig gunsĒ to come take care of it for us. Canít speak for everyone but the first trip was a ďfailure,Ē we didnít even make it there and Shi was killed. For me, there was a feeling that this time we needed to accomplish something solid. It is hard to stop when the onion starts getting peeled and we are discovering more and more. What is the point where we say Ė this is enough, better go home now - ? Who is the one who is supposed to say it and how hard should we push against the players that want to keep going? Iím not sure what the answers to those questions are. For next time we have a scouting adventure rather than a mission accomplished adventure though, I think I need to have it spelled out very clearly.

Low Level & High Level Characters: For the record, Iím not ready to retire Branwyn yet and would be very sad to be forced to do so. I am definitely not thinking of mainly playing lower level characters, and if given the choice, I would axe Howard and Johan or give them to someone that wanted them in a heartbeat in comparison to playing Branwyn and Indigo. Not because of their levels, but because I just love playing them.

I think lower and higher level characters can play together. I havenít gotten a chance to play really low level characters in a long time so what Iím going to say next is really armchair quarterbacking Ė so forgive me. But it is my sense that we may have forgotten exactly how to play low level characters. Players have to know their characterís hit points and limits and work with them. All the PCs get the XP whether they are hiding behind a planter during encounters or in the face of their opponents. They donít have to stick it out. And as they grow in XP they can do more and more in combat situations. If you take the viewpoint that these are expendable just have fun with them characters, then go ahead and let them run around doing whatever they feel like and keep making more. But if you take the viewpoint that you want to grow these characters, then they have to be handled a bit more carefully I think.

As an example from last night - There would have been nothing wrong with the two guildees running down the aisle screaming and shutting themselves in the office. Their movement was 120 ft Ė they could have made it in one round. That would have brought the hellhound and girl to the rest of the group and not the rest of the group to them. That would have been a great thing for a low level character to do to help the group. The hound didnít bite and attach itself to Guiote. After getting a flame to the face, a PC with hps in the teens needs to run! Standing there and trying to fight with the rest of the party over 100 ft away is asking for death. A PC with 8 hps being the one nearby to help is not practical. No, itís not the fun center of combat role, but drawing the enemy to the stronger characters could have been an important role and a way for the lower level characters to still participate and live to see another day.

I really, really understand heat of the moment decisions, and am beating myself up for mine more than you can possibly imagine. And I know TMO and Ryan thought Pete was coming in from the altar and two PCs were missing so the plan had to spin on the fly. I am only bringing that above example up as a thought for the future in working with the low level characters. They level so fast, it just takes a little patience and thought to how they can best operate within the group and still stay alive. Soon enough they will be in the spotlight handling themselves well.


6-29 BOB

I never expected this to go the way it has. I had envisioned getting to the church, seeing the updates, finding some strong hints on what sort of person was here and then heading back to tell Branwyn what was going on. Three times into the catacombs I was not expecting. Spending nights in the church I was not expecting. I did expect the young guild members to scout, hide, report and attempt to avoid direct combat.

There are more story arcs for the lower levels without retiring anyone and story arcs for the higher levels that will compliment them as this was intended to do. I am working out how the mix of encounters will be for the next huge party trek where almost everyone heads off together in a huge group.

That's cool. It was just where my brain went last night. I may have been the only one. :) But the casualty rate for noobs is running about 90%. Onald is the only survivor, and he's lost half his levels, or maybe 3/4s. And then we get hurt worse than we would have otherwise by trying to save them. But if you scale down the encounters so they survive, then people like Tiberius can handle the whole thing by themselves with no help. Admittedly, this is after the near disaster of last night, I may just be overreacting to it. :) - TMO
We curtailed your expectations yet again? Man, we're really good at that! ;) Honestly, after reading that, I realized we technically just went as a scouting mission, not a cleaning the place out mission. I mean, hard to walk away from a Face Stealer, but I suppose we did (or at least me, I can't speak for anyone else) forget the purpose we went. As for the guild members, while I feel guilty when they die (TMO has ONLY fifteen to spare!) I do like that they are, er, more expendable. Guiote and Michel were unexpected, but Siffress allowed me to take risks I have a harder time doing with my own characters as I've grown attached to them, and while that risk resulted in her death, I wasn't too upset by it. There might be two more cents elsewhere for me to share, but just wanted to comment on that, at least. And again, everything is 20/20 in hindsight, right? Things we could have done differently, but nothing we did do seemed unreasonable given where our thoughts were and have been based on past experiences (damn Face Stealer). - Carissa

6/29 TMO

Okay, I had a hard time not reviewing the whole encounter last night when I went to bed, and here are some of my thoughts. ;)

Going out in groups with wildly varying levels is *not* working for us. Bob has to try and scale his encounters so that it's still a challenge for the tougher characters, and that completely overwhelms the poor Guild members who are rarely above 2nd level. If they're only going to die uselessly, why even bring them along? It does give players some more people to RP if their main character isn't available, but then it just depresses them when they inevitably die. Playing new characters is fun. Watching them die futilely underneath you is not.

Last night we had what I thought was a pretty darn good ambush set up (I'm biased though, Ilero proposed it), around where we thought Pete would come from. But people we didn't expect came from another direction, where we'd placed the Guild to keep them out of the way, but still provide warning just in case. They were easily discovered and attacked, of course, because they're 1st levels against a Hellhound and high level spellcaster of some sort. If we had sacrificed them, we could have kept our ambush, but because we're not monsters we tried to rescue them. The result was a single fireball taking out half of the party.

Frankly, having the Guild members along was very rarely useful, and more often harmful, other than as RP vessels. The only instance I can think of where they were useful was Siffress being able to speak Gnome and to the guard badger.

Usually when we have low level PCs tagging along with high levels, it's just one or two, as PCs die or get replaced, and even then, they're not 1st level noobs.

I'm thinking something along the lines of we need to be more segregationist. :) We have our high level party, and we have our scrubs. Lisa has Branwyn, and she has Howard and Johan. I have Ilero and Shurkural, and the whole of the Guild (which I'm more than happy to share with others; I don't need 15 characters all to myself). Spring is thinking about replacing Snezana. Mario is thinking about replacing Kel, and still has Mara. I'm not sure where Carissa is at with Shi, but she's been apparently happy to play Guiote and Michel. Michael has been using Onaldkelrad. Every player either has low-levels, or is thinking about replacing their high-levels with a lower-level.

Do we need to think about moving the whole group to, or forming a lower-level only group? This would let Bob tailor his encounters to a more homogeneous group. It would, however, put Branwyn, Ilero, Hoffman, and possibly Shurkural and Marisu, off onto the sidelines. Tiberius too, if we manage to bring him back from this misadventure. We could still do some plotlines around them, depending on what Bob thought was practical or interesting.

I'm not sure if this would require "retiring" the mains or not. There are still adventures that can be done with them, it would depend on what the players want, and Bob allowed. And Bob has storylines planned that he might want to see finished first, I'm sure. This game has to not only be fun for us, but for him. I'm generous like that, I'll even let Bob have some fun once in a while. ;)

At any rate, I'm just bringing this up for discussion. This isn't something that has to be decided on immediately, or even ever. It's just where my brain went last night while I was trying to sleep thankyouverymuch.


6/23 TMO

I wanted to write the summary, but when I sat down to do it, I realized I didn't think I could do it fairly or without explaining what hasn't yet been explained. ;) I promise I'll do a summary of an episode soon though.

6/24 - Mario

Fair enough, that makes perfect sense, TMO. I can do the summary for this week.


6 - 20 BOB Nice job on the summary Ryan


6-14 TMO

Dwarves are weird: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1166.html


6-11 Mario

Bob's Prep Time


5-30 Ryan

Hello,

My family has had a situation recently, and I won't be able to attend tomorrow's session. I am very sorry for the inconvenience.

Sorry to hear, Ryan! Hope everything is okay and we'll see you next week! Lisa


5-28 Mario

Just being nit-picky, but it could be vital in the future: When Mara used Hold Person spell at the beginning of last session 20190524c, the spell was cast on but one person. This should have led to that person's saving throw to be made at a -2 (-1 if used on two persons). The penalty would have caused the save to fail, resulting in the holding of face-stealing Skarp. It could have resulted in the fake Skarp being prevented from heading into the catacombs, Ilero from flash-backing to his horrible Ghoul experience, Onald's loss of three levels, and real Skarp from suffering a major a$$ whipping. Just saying. :0)

Mara did hold the fake Skarp. Then she cast dispel magic which negated the hold. -- BOB

There is confusion here. Agreed, the fake Skarp was held, and Dispel Magic released him. That was not this Friday past (May 24), but the Friday before. This Friday, the fake Skarp used MUS to break from the rope. Mara cast Hold Person; fake Skarp rolled a 17 against a required 16, so he was free. However, the roll should have been at -2, which would have kept him held. No biggie at all; I should have said something at the time. I should know my spells. - Mario Ahh I did miss that sorry - BOB''


5-26 BOB

I updated some of the pages this weekend. I added new maps for Dragon Fen and updated the Campaign World download for Google Earth.

It is also time to consider the date for the BOB's Birthday Game this year. The weekend of September 14th or 28th is the current target.

Like always we would do the traditonal Friday night session then play again on Saturday Noon to Midnight.

Does either weekend work better or worse for anyone?

  1. Definitely voting September 28th. I'm out of town weekend of Sept 14 for a wedding, and probably will have to miss Friday anyways, and would not be able to get on at all on Saturday. - Carissa
  2. I can make either one. The sooner we determine which, the better. - Mario
  3. Either look okay at the moment, but I would prefer the date where the most people can play! - Lisa
  4. What Lisa said. I put both on my calendar to be sure. - Spring

5-17 BOB

Dragon Armor - Yes - Standard Leather Armor AC bonus, plus an additional +2 to saves versus acid

Poison - Yes to it being a game mechanic thing. The two most encountered are the Giant Spiders with deadly poison and Centipedes with Paralytic poison. However if you look at that page there are LOTS of other options and we have used them in the past. It also means you can get hit with a weapon, bite, etc and not know you are poisoned until the time of the effect kicking in - which is when you would make your save.


5-14 TMO

Bob - Ilero's been aiming for a while to get this Black Dragon leather armor made. During this multi-year time skip does he have any opportunities to do that?


5-12 TMO

Alrighty, bummer about Siffress. She had the possibility to be an interesting side character, although that's been my goal for making all of these. I've tried very hard not to make cookie cutter characters.

But, honestly, the role of scout is a dangerous one. I'm extremely surprised that Ilero is still alive. I've asked Bob a couple of times if he's fudging things in Ilero's favor, and he says he hasn't.

As for Ilero returning with another member of the Guild in tow, most of the remaining ones tend to operate in pairs: Dara/Paelius, Machin/Lina, Guiote/Michel. Acorn is still incomplete because I have *no* clue what her stat modifications are, and haven't gotten around to pestering Bob to get them so I could finish her. ;)

There's also Jon or Kazimir, or the possibility of rolling up a new character for slot #3.

Note that Siff at least did not come from the hidden gnome village local to us, although Oppleby might have. But it's theoretically possible one of those gnomes might be interested in joining the Guild as well.

PS - I just reread Siff's final moments and I thought I had maybe found a loophole, but I think it missed by one. Siff had rolled a successful tumbling check right before being attacked, which improved her AC by 4. Which means the first bite missed. But the second attack still hit, and it only took 1 failed poison save to do the deed.

I just feel like I need to point out instant venom death is still weird to me, and only one spider in the world has venom so potent it could almost kill you instantly (Sydney Funnel Web Spider, in Australia, of course, and Brazilian Wandering Spider comes in second but you have about an hour to get help; also we're ignoring tiny spiders that can't break skin in this argument). But, you know, that's just me and my nitpicking of nature specific details. Probably doesn't count as a loophole. This time. ;) - Carissa

That was early D&D for you. It does simplify things quite a bit, at the expense of realism. However, insta-death effects were never very popular. In 5Ed, failing a save seems to (I'm not an expert, although I'm learning the rules) usually give you extra damage, and the Poisoned condition, which gives you disadvantage on attacks and skill checks. - TMO

The thing I would have liked to see and I was looking for it in the chat log was the chain from Siffress at +15 to get to -15. She had 18 hps total. Fell the first time and from a 1d6 roll went to +15. Then she was attacked 2x by the spider for -7. So at that point w/o poison she was at +8. Then Skarp tossed her off the ledge and Branadarus missed her causing another fall (1d6 again?) The rest of the damage to get to -15 would have to be the poison? I'm not trying to argue the event. I would just have liked to see how it went down. But IMO - the poison thing in BOB's world is somewhat of a mystery without a PC with the nwp (Calling Shi back from her treehouse!) If she were there I am guessing she could have rolled it and been able to tell us we would be in an insta-death situation prior to anyone doing anything to possibly get up close and personal with said arachnid. We never know what will happen with it until someone gets poisoned in each case it seems. Shi has been the first PC I have played with that had that nwp. Lisa

Shi briefly leaves her treehouse and responds... Er, I mean Steve responds. - Carissa


5-9 John

Apparently there is family thing Friday night not Saturday so I will not be in. I am going to do a quick post in character to summarize what Hoffman remembers but some may have heard from other characters not present.


5-8 TMO

So - the bad news: The Beast Feast I mentioned is this Friday, so I will be missing a third session in a row. It is actually easier for me to explain one long absence than 2 separate ones, but you all have my apologies for it anyways. I just wish I had a clue what that explanation will be though. ;) I hope it's a good one. "Taking a leak" doesn't seem to work any more.

This is the general scene of Ilero's famous ghoul encounter. Maybe Ilero could be having a PTSD episode and is without Shur to snap him out of it. Have fun at the event!! Lisa

Also he could be scouting out around the larger perimeter. Along the lines of 'Some of us came through near here with that Bard, what area do these goblin holes cover and why did we not find them then? Or other questions that spring to mind. - BOB


5-5 John

Not up for formatting but I am refreshing Hoffman's memory and he will confirm Red Cloak was in the church the first time we were here. And during the adventure (technically 2nd visit) we met his (as of the time unknown) twin brother Tobin


4-30 Mario

...the second time is coincidence...or is it?


4/30 John

I have to say Bob's update about him being remote is yet another parallel to history. Bob was remote on the second night of Skull church, and some party members were talking about taking it over and we were just expected to do recon.


4/29 Lisa

Yes, thanks, John! I didn't remember that the first Skull Church trip was that early in our careers.


4/28 TMO

Thank you! This again reminds me why I didn't know about the Red Cloak background. This was two years before I joined. I'll do my research this week. ;)


4/28 - John

For your reading pleasure, the first time "we" were at Skull Church: Nov1910c


04/26 - Michael

Someone very helpfully pointed out how that posting could have stung some people and took the time to explain it (so it could get even through my thick-head). I understand more fully now. I would like to give another quick apology to anyone who may have been further hurt by my remarks. I also sincerely wanted to let you guys know that for that week I was nonstop thinking about what I could do to fix this. It seems in attempting to fix it I made things 10 times worse. Sigh. So, Again. I sincerely apologize. I will definitely read for now on before posting. And will be prepared for posting (period).

That being said! LOL I was being literal. If someone asks me to post and I haven't read any material relevant I most definitely am keeping mum until I've understood the topic. That may require me to act "dumb" during some play sessions until I've caught up properly.

So, moving forward in all senses of that word. I will attempt to be in next week and have no idea what sort of character to build. Certainly have no fear I will be avoiding certain classes, if anyone has any suggestions on what the party overall needs, let me know. Something that is easier to play would be most helpful but still useful to group activities. Something support or Tanky related.


<<<<<<< 04/26

Oof. Just read bobs response to my email post. By the way, I indeed posted that so that they knew my thought processes behind the session just in case they hadn't roleplayed. And yes, you are correct. I should have read through the chats. But! I also had no desire at the moment to do so considering I had worked pretty damn hard for the last two days before that. You are totally fine to post the entire email chain, that's doesn't bother me. I simply wanted them to know that I hadn't ignored them and was actively thinking about things to do. I certainly didn't mean to upset you, as that was in no way the intent. I have informed you all that I no longer able to spend what little time I do have for the chats. I am sincerely sorry about that. I do think (as you have retired both characters) Shi and Kel should at least get something out of the deal. Let them at Neith? It wont hurt anything at this point.

However, since you have also retired said characters (which is also fine and in fact I am grateful for Neith's retirment. You are the DM afteral and your word is law) I will take advantage to spend time with my family tonight. I will attempt to find time next week to spend time figuring out a new character.

And Bob? I may feel sorry about myself, but I have never wanted to mislead anyone. Sure I effed up and I'm totally fine acknowledging that. But, I don't like when people say "to make yourself feel better." I have a lot of respect for you and the game, but that was a bit on my line too.

I hope you all have a great game tonight. It looks like TMO wont be in? So probably wont be missing too much anyways.


======= 4-26 BOB

Michael,

We have moved on from Neith and Hugh. We are days after the original combat with the griffon and new characters are on the return trip. You had said you wanted Neith and Hugh to travel and so we did that.

If you want to log in tonight to play great. TMO has Guild members along that you can play.


>>>>>>> 4/26

Alrighty. Finally, have a few minutes to review chats and stuff (still at work but they've graced me with a damn break finally). Will hopefully be on for a couple of hours tonight but have made plans to see Avengers with family by the pain of death so will need to bug out early. Will start catching up on stuff now. Also quite frankly not emotionally capable of the intense roleplay required for Neith tonight, so will do my best, but she'll probably be pretty numb, because I'm exhausted and in a very real sense echo her sentiment. I suppose from just a couple things I've seen on Player Communication it'll turn out into a big slugfest between characters and I'm okay with that. Neith probably won't defend herself from guilt and I was planning on her probably dying from this anyways so that won't bother me, but Kel should probably do it away from Hugh, it'll prevent absolute chaos at the manor with the queen there and all that. It'll prevent me from having to roleplay Hugh's anger and revenge and save me a hell of a headache.

- Michael


4/26 TMO

I'm in Portland with a work laptop, and I don't have Klooge installed on it. I think I'm going to pass on being on tonight anyways and continue helping my folks out around their house. We're still being productive. ;) By next week though, that situation will have hopefully changed.

I suggest, if you need more folks for the excursion, take some more Guild members along to fill out the ranks. Everyone but Acorn, Machin, and Lina should be fully statted out. And they're easy to have disappear later if we don't need them any longer. Fair warning, they are *low* level. Don't expect a lot of combat assistance from them. I can be reached easily through Discord if you have any questions about how to read their personality stuff. For the personality traits, the left-hand is a scale, I don't believe any of them have any traits to insane levels.


4/23 TMO

Yes, there was some confusion on the whole 'going there' plot, also not understanding it was a physical place as well as a spiritual one(?). But also just kind of riffing on Elves not being human and having somewhat alien thought processes, as well as being driven past sane thought by grief and depression. And that's not a bad thing, just harder for sane people to understand. (if I qualify for the designation 'sane' of course ;) )

That's not a bad thing - imho, towards the climax of the Hunger Games books (before the epilogue), Katniss isn't really sane anymore from all the trauma she's gone through. It doesn't make the story worse, it makes it more authentic. People (and I presume elves) do break down and act and think illogically under intense stress. Behaving like Spock all the time isn't what's realistic.

I don't know what Kel and Shi will decide to do - most anything can be made believable at this point. I do question the 'killing Neith' part, but, see the 'not sane' points above. ;) One thing that no one has commented on or about (myself included) is how Neith is feeling through all this. It's all about Shi and Kel, but Neith is probably affected almost as badly. Even if we don't have her actively in RP, it's still a topic that should be broached at some time.


4/23 Lisa

Thanks, Mario! I get it now. Guess it shows that I need to do a little more reading about elves. I didn't realize it was a physical place! So maybe Tiberius wasn't so far out of line that we could go have a chat with Solonor! :-)


4/23 Mario

Thank you all for the feedback. In my mind it was clear. I appreciate you letting me know it wasn't. I'll recap here:

Kel's plan was to get Shi's body to their home in Valoris Wood. That evening, he would then sneak out and kill Neith for causing Shi's death. He then would literally carry Shi home to Divaekah, have a brief reunion with the clan, and continue on to Arvanaith, where the three would live in paradise forever.

When I read about Arvanaith and that elves 'go' there, I imagined in a spirit form when death was near. It only dawned on me a few months ago that the trip was a physical one; an old-age elf would wander off to get to Arvanaith. The Complete Book of Elves mentioned that it was rare to see an elf die of old age because they would migrate to Arvanaith when they felt the time was close. It doesn't say anything about being dead, or killing themselves, or how they actually die, but I suppose that would have to take place at some point!

So, if an elder elf would walk there, it stands to reason any elf could as well, when they chose to go. Kel denied himself the chance the first time; he decided he would go now. Taking Teb was a given; he may not be able to experience it in body form, but he could at least in his metallic form. Shi would have to make that decision on her own.

I haven't decided if Kel's mission is truly over; he could not protect Shi from death as he promised, so he failed. But she is still alive...so, where does that leave him? Mentally doubting his abilities, for sure. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks again for the feedback, and sorry for the confusion.


4/23 Lisa

Frankly, I was confused. Was Kel's plan to sneak past the Queen's security and kill Branwyn? The Queen? Jennivive?

The heightened security and frequent patrols in place for the Queen's visit would prove no match for his skills. The lock would silently yield and entry into the dark home would be imperceptible. A few muffled steps, a tiny glint of steel, and a muted whimper.

And it sounded at the end that Kel was advocating a three-way suicide?

But just because I as confused doesn't mean anyone else is. It was written very well and was exciting and good! I liked it, but just didn't understand all of it. Like opera! :-)


4-23 Mario

Tone is so difficult to get across in written form. I was not being defensive, nor am I perturbed. I want to make sure my attempt at writing dramatically didn't cloud the overall message or idea I was trying to convey. Not sure if I needed to rewrite for clarity.


4-23 BOB

Mario, I think that TMO is teasing about how elves think. I think John is commenting on changing a bunch of his pages recently.

For page creation every new page needs to have a heading and a link back to the previous page that someone came from, plus a link to another page. That is how the wiki works as people click through page after page. I can generate a report that shows dead-end pages. A page that has only landing links with nothing leaving. We tend to stay near or at zero which means anyone out there in the world who stumbles upon this site will find that it works like any other maintained wiki site.

For example for quite a while if you did a basic google search on 'small kingdoms' our site came up in the top 20. Over wikipedia pages about actual real kingdoms and mixed into the results of an actual book called Small Kingdoms.

I want everyone to continue to add pages and be creative, we just need to keep some basic formating.


4-23 Mario

Not sure what's not clear. I spent a lot of time composing that passage, making sure the message would be straight-forward. Was I not clear on some part of it? Which part is confusing? I want to make sure the message isn't misinterpreted: All three elves (if you count Teb) missed their chance to go to Arvanaith.


4/23 John

I understand about creative desires being hampered. Mario's work was well written and is in keeping with his if not their character. I can't wait for the response.


4-22 TMO

I just don't understand elves....


4-15 TMO

Another Guildee done. Only two left, I think: Lina and Machin, the two from the Drake Estates.

Correction: three: I don't have anything for Acorn I believe.


4/15 Lisa

I posted and copied all the posts on last Friday to OOC


4/13 TMO

I've done a little bit of reading the chat log, and found something that may be informative. Or maybe not. When we were trying to come up with a way to stop the griffon, a lightning bolt was mentioned, which does {Level}d8 (erroneously called 6d8 in the chat, when Neith is now level 7). The average damage for 6d8 is 27, while Shi had 29 hp remaining (X-50= -21, X=29). The average damage for even 7d8 is 31.5. Shi would have been at -3hp, easily savable (not counting any fall damage).

However, the actual Priest spell isn't Lightning Bolt, it's Call Lightning, which does 2d8+{Level}d8 damage, or 9d8. Not 6d8, which everyone thought we were casting, with a max damage of 48, but half-again as much, with a max of 72. The average damage for 9d8 is 40.5, which is more than 10 over her hp total. Michael actually rolled a goodly amount over average damage, because the dice hated us last night. Seriously, only one roll the entire night actually went in our favor: the one Command spell Mara was able to make stick against her griffon. No, I take it back, two rolls: the griffon failed it's save vs the lightning too. The worst case scenario would have had Shi die, and the griffon live, flying away with her body. (As an additional note, the 50 damage done is more than is even possible from 6d8 - that was what tipped me off to this whole thing in the first place)

Shi and the griffon both had similar save chances (12 and 13), so 60% chance to save and take half damage. Half damage I believe would have forced the griffon to land, and both would have survived even half damage of 9d8. Was it a gamble? Yes. Did we realize just how big of a gamble it was? No. Would we still have done it if we had known? I don't know the answer to that. I believe I was thinking using the Rod was no big deal at the time, as a player. I supported Michael's casting, based on our options at the time. There was no way I could see of us being able to track or find her once the griffon was out of sight. If we had had the option, we might have tried it when the green dragon took Kenna.

Does this fix anything about the situation? I doubt it. We made an error in judgment. I was part of that call, feeling it was the best option we had at the time. It was wrong, but it was the decision we went with. Michael asked multiple times if we were sure about it, and we chose to go with it.


4/13 Carissa

I gave it a day, I read through the chats, and I will be completely honest: I am still beyond livid about what happened on Friday.

Absolutely none of that was okay. None of it. A decision that kills off someone's character should never be made without their input. Shi's death was not an accident. If a griffon ate her, that's fine, it's how that goes, but to use a spell you knew would kill her without me having absolutely any voice in it at all is not okay by any means. Nor do I appreciate how casually it was handle once she was dead as if it wasn't a big deal, that there was no reason to feel sorry for what happened. That was incredibly disrespectful. To be honest, reading the chat today only rekindled my anger.

Yes, I had obligations, but I was doing my best to be present, and by the actions Shi took, at my word, you knew I was present to a degree. It would have taken at most five minutes to have someone run that plan by me and for me to have a chance to respond. No one should ever assume a character wants to return. No one should be surprised that Shi doesn't want to return. Shi has brought that up multiple times for a reason which seems like it was a waste of time now. And if she does return? My character and I will be in agreement that her death was a murder. It does not matter if it was in good faith or not. She was murdered, and it could have been prevented.

There were plenty of hints that the griffon wasn't going to immediately eat her. Shi was not a helpless damsel in distress. I was prepared for the possibility of her disappearing if someone had just taken the time to ask my opinion and plan. There are always more options beyond killing a character, and if you are to kill them, you do not make that decision for the player no more than you make the decision to bring them back without that player's input.

I do not know what my plans are for Shi or for myself at this moment. I am angry, and I have every right to feel how I want about what happened. I cannot brush this aside and pretend that everything is okay, and that I will simply get over this without at minimal some discourse because this cannot happen again, and this cannot be something to pretend is okay.

For now, I'm going to post this, and then try to put it out of my mind for the next few days. I want to enjoy the rest of my visit with my family without this hanging over me. Maybe eventually the anger will dim enough for me to grieve Shi's death, but that is not happening anytime soon.


4/13 John

It certainly seems like Carissa is in the right frame of mind considering. She can separate what her character wants from what she wants and has options to find the best mix for them both. But I also have a different perspective in that I have had a lot of characters I have loved to play. I love the idea of Carissa allowing her character to be brought back against her character's will and seeing how that might change her or her relationships. I could see Shi coming back but leaving the Mist for an extended period as long as we don't lose Carissa from the game. I think if Carissa really thought about being Beastmaster, we may never see Shi again. (A character that attracts animal companions that can increase in level) Let's hope that is only the next henchperson for Shi /Carissa. I just hope Carissa still finds the joy of the game.

As for my characters, I had sent Hoffman alone to the initial meeting while we straighten out the time line and finish with Miranda and Foto. As we are unexpectedly back, I would like to make sure where Foto is, if he is no longer a Brother and have him join us on the next trip to Head Stone Manner (I want to change the name from Skull church eventually). I also want to say there is plenty of room at Traveler's Way


4/12 Carissa

So yes, definitely looking like I won't be on right away tonight. Please try to keep me updated on Discord. Maybe I can leave kLoOgE up and just jump into the mix if needed (but I won't be able to pay attention so someone would need to prompt me).


4-10 Michael

You are 1000 percent correct bob. But it is also true that spell management becomes difficult when people are dying and griffons swoop in to kidnap players left and right. I would agree with saving spells, but I'm also somewhat a bitter realist. I think we all work with what we got right? I don't suppose you have some suggestions for spell management here. I have one for all our magic users, that we have the spell "NAP" which can assist greatly I think, but it certainly isn't a spell that can be abused and if I recall correctly, has a "Crash" at the end of it as a drawback. Like drinking a coffee to keep on going and then crashing. This could be problematic for the encounters at Skull Church.

For the purposes of this adventure, since we are back into serious item/spell management I could use some help with tracking down usage. For myself obviously I just have a sticky note with what spells I have left for a day, but other things such as health items that people may or may not have remembered to bring would be useful too. I'm sure there's a link somewhere that says what we have for this trip and i'll take a look, but I was a bad person and came in <i>Very</i> late last Friday.

Since you have taken the time to warn of spell management I'll see what I can do to ration out this critical resource, but unfortunately I can count probably two more higher level spells gone in the attempt to rescue our Griffon chow. :)

Does anyone have any thoughts for doing it without Magic? Perhaps we could just track them? I have no idea how long it would take to follow back to the nest by which time momma griffin is probably coughing up adventurer chunks for the chicks. Personally I have no clue.

I am honest god pretty excited to see how this turns out this weekend. I made sure to clear Friday's entire afternoon so I will be there for the whole session.


4-8 BOB

Timing is back to keeping track hour by hour in game time.

So when I mention you have to watch out for your spells that is what I mean. You might have lots of spells right now, but you are not yet to Skull Church, then your plan is to camp outside (nearby) and will have to deal with encounters. Not random encounter who might wander by your campsite in the swamps. Encounters from (perhaps, maybe) undead programed/sent out to scour the area for any intruders. The first time the group visited here no one was watching when they showed up. The second time they were attacked as soon as they were visible to the creatures inside.

You have to be prepared for the idea that your mission here will take 5 or 6 game sessions but only cover 6 to 24 hours of game time. Fatigue may very well come into play during this adventure


4-7 BOB

Just to archive the link here in case anyone finds us from the web.

https://www.cnet.com/news/robots-vr-and-3d-printers-are-served-up-at-this-high-tech-library/


04/05/2019 - Michael

Hey Guys. I'll be very late tonight. I have a family function that is basically required. I'll hop on as soon as I can, but it's looking like 10:30 PM bobs time. Second Edit. Bacon's masterpiece. Just. Wow. Good job Carissa.


4-3 BOB

For those that remember Tabletop Connect and the project we were heading for...... This just announced from Fantasy Grounds, the company that bought them out.

Super exciting news from Fantasy Grounds! We will be launching a Kickstarter for Fantasy Grounds Unity on May 1, 2019! We'll be briefly discussing the upcoming Kickstarter on this week's Fantasy Grounds Fridays so join us at noon (EST) on Friday. More details will be released as we get closer to May! Stay tuned.

So it looks like that will be our first look at what might eventually be the successor to KloOge. No promises or commitments yet on anything other than we are going to play every Friday as intended.


3/29 Carissa

For those who missed it (or weren't on tonight): Bacon's Masterpiece.

@Carissa - And a masterpiece it is! Great work! I really enjoyed it and the story arc. Thanks!! Lisa


3-26 BOB

So yes to TMO for Dara not speaking W Comm currently. Yes to everyone for the end of Missing Muse. Yes to Carissa for flipping one of the Thistle/Shi XP awards. Fixed now in KloOge.

The final summary is up: So concludes our side trek and we move onto life at Dragon Fen. A quiet backwater Estate led by a new Countess. How exciting could that possibly be?


3-23 TMO

So, which way would you prefer Dara? Able to have weird conversations with you, or babbling nonsensically in general and only able to be understood by Elves? We've had one session each way so far.

  • Is this a real question? Because babbling nonsensically in general sounds far more amusing. For me at least, I can then play on Thistle attempting to learn Elven by babbling nonsensically back to Dara! Fun all around! - Carissa
  • Sure, real question. ;) She's going to be a bit weird either way. Her top personality trait is Irrationality. And she has a comically low Wisdom. - TMO

All wrapped up XP assigned and anyone who needs training was likely mentioned in the chat.

Starting with training on March 29th then moving to the new story arc........

---

3-21 BOB

We are continuing this Friday to wrap up Carissa's Guest DM. She will be late perhaps so the first part as we wait for her will be a chance to make sure everyone is ready for training. Meaning knowing what you want to do for skills or using up the time that we skip ahead.

Overall I think we will be in the 2 1/2 to 3 year time frame for this entire Building Dragon Fen story arc. So even the most recent kids are well on their way to growing and being able to be left with nannies or at the church with who ever stays behind etc. Eventually after a few more story arcs and time elapsed I have the beginning ideas for a story arc that involves the kids without the parents.

So by March 29th the plan is to wrap up Missing Muse, assign all the XP, total up and check new things to train for, do the training and wrap up for everyone.

Then April 5th we start the new story arc involving Skull Church plus potentially other minor things including Marisu coming back with news and potentially asking for assistance.


3/15 TMO

Since Paelius' looks are unusual enough, I wrote them up in more detail, trying to put it into words:

(Paelius' Appearance is a 5, btw. There's nothing outrageously ugly about him. He's got a couple of visible small scars on his face, but nothing major. His face just looks ... off. Like it was assembled by someone who couldn't read the instructions.)

His cheekbones are almost invisible, making his face look oddly flat and triangular. His eye sockets are slightly sunken but his eyes are slightly protuberant. His nose juts out surprisingly from the middle of his face, as if it was glued on. His mouth is slightly twisted to one side, and his chin is offset and slightly pointed. He wears a pair of earrings in each ear, and the very tip of his left ear appears to have been crudely clipped off.
He keeps his hair cut tight against his scalp on the sides, while the top is left long and combed backwards.
He wears leather armor, and carries a short bow and long sword, both elven-made. He keeps both in good condition. He carries his pet frog in a special pouch on his belt that it can hop out of at any time.
  • And here I am suddenly excited by the simple fact he has a pet frog (maybe keep it away from the wolves and bird, though...). - Carissa

3-9 TMO

Sorry I wasn't able to join last night. I'd really rather have been playing. :(

Bob - If Marisu runs across any of these spells during her training in Loosend, she'd be interested in trying to learn and/or obtain copies of them. I only looked at 1st-2nd level spells. I'm assuming 3rd are still off-limits for her. Just let me know which, if any, of them she comes across during her research. And if she doesn't find any of them, that's alright. I pulled all of these out of Lisa's spell db in dropbox.

1st level:

  • Acquaintance
  • Appraisal
  • Engagement
  • Enhance Trait - enhances normal animal trait
  • Map
  • Janne's Impressive Demeanor
  • Spell Echo
  • Spirit Servant
  • Suric's Swift Perusal

2nd level:

  • Alustriel's Banner
  • Captains Voice
  • Darazell's Noose - not certain about this one. Kind of grim, but may have it's uses.
  • Deeppockets
  • Detect Lycanthrope (Diviners only, but you can understand why she'd love to have it)
  • Echo
  • Leomund's Many Life Preservers
  • Mute
  • Scare
  • Scribe
  • Sundazzle
  • Swim
  • Unpickable Lock

3-8 BOB

My recommendations for the traveling party (feel free to do what you wish as always): Howard, Thistle, Mara, Hugh, Kenna, Skarphedin, one or two from the Guild, and Foto. Potentially adding in Indigo as an additional fighter and someone who has been to Redfern and Old Man Miller's before. You have scouts, mages, priests and fighters.

Kel, Shi, Branwyn, Tiberius, Ilero, Shur, Hoffman, and Miranda all are getting their houses in order, reorganizing their lives, etc. Then there are those to attend to the Church or the Estate.

Alternatively you could make this a family outing with the full Branadarus & D'Ambry familes coming along.

When the Missing Muse story arc is finished I will write up a paragraph for each character to review what has happened in their lives over the past stretch of time. We will also award XP and do what ever training is requested. I will reset the date to be back in order rather than the squishy nebulous parts we have been working through this story arc. Then the first expedition to Skull Church is what is currently in your plans. I am anticipating a smaller group such as this for that first scouting mission. I have another story arc that will run concurrently with that one similar to what we did with Wedding Crashers/Bebbux although not as momentous it is hoped. And of course continuing the story of Marisu until she requests additional help from the group in returning her own Estate back to its former glory.

Also it is not my intention to have daily morning meetings. Only three of them a month, the first day of each week to handle the affairs of Dragon Fen. More pages coming for those.


3/3 TMO

Bob - what does "fully trained" mean regarding Marisu? New spells, more xp to hit next level, her NWP filled in, new magic items and/or artifacts? ;) Thanks.

Fully Trained means all caught up on XP, levels are right, HP, THAC0, Saving Throws. That would be Leveling. Then adding in what ever for Proficiencies, Thief Skills, Spell Levels, etc that take time for training. That would be Fully Trained. Once that is all caught up then new spells to research as people want to, other projects of creating and such. That is just part of life.
My question arises because she's kind of close to going up a level. Just a couple thousand away, iirc. So if she earns that xp, then there's more leveling to do for her, a new spell level (3rd) obtained, etc. If not, then leveling is fairly easy - she just needs to see if she can get a couple new spells of 1st/2nd level and fill in her NWP. Thanks, TMO

3-2 BOB

Sorry for disappearing last night, I suspect there are some good things for me to return to.

In another twist at this hotel I went to breakfast this morning. $20 all you can eat buffet. Turns out it is paper plates, plastic forks and knives, make your own waffle, only a couple of bananas for fruit. It is very much a weird experience.


2-24 TMO

Personality Notes pages are created for all the Tieran Guild, including the replacement Gnomey Gnomerson (except for Acorn and Jon for different reasons). I'll finish going through and doing stats too, although I'm not going to level anyone up tonight. Too tired. Also, Bob, it's been far too many years since I've played a multi-class character to remember the proper rules for that. So I'll need to step through that with you some night when you've got time.


2-23 BOB

TMO you do get a replacement at the same level they were when they came in when a guild member dies. Because it has been almost zero time I will say you get the same levels, multi-class, etc for your replacement person. They will show up in {2d12} weeks from the loss of the previous person. In the future that time frame can change. In this case you can just create the new person because you still have at least 24 weeks to go so it will not matter what you roll.

TMO - so another gnome F3/T3?

Yes, BOB

2-22 TMO

As an FYI, Lanek is Ilero's second-in-command inside the Guild. As such he can also give commands to other Guild members. :)

PS - Bob, range appears to be calculated in a java object. Not sure if I have access to those.


2-18 BOB

We tested Klooge and it seems to be working just fine still so I will leave it up for the foreseeable future.

We do want to work on finalizing the town buildings and if there is anyone of significance in the various locations.

We will do any final cleanup at Joe's farm then move to the next encounter that will be at Foriso Town.

Then the next two encounters and we move to training to wrap up this story arc.


2-15 Ryan

Hello,

Sorry, but we have friends who are surprising us with a visit tonight. It seems that I will be tied up for the earlier part of the session, although I will see if I can get on later tonight. Sorry about this.


2-14 TMO

A challenge to anyone who wants it:

As mentioned, CHA is kind of a dump stat with this Guild. Since I was able to assign the character rolls to whichever guildmember I wanted, the higher-level characters got the better stats, which makes a bit of sense. But now that I'm approaching the raw recruits, stat totals are getting lower and lower. ;)
You can see the types of pics I'm looking at to pull character portraits below. I'm going to need portraits for the following characters:
* High Elf, F2/T2/M2; CHA 7 (App 5; Ldr 9) - update: I may have found a pic for this one (see below)
* Human, T2; CHA 6
* Human, T1; CHA 3

On some quick searches, there don't really seem to be any of ugly elves. ;) I'm not sure the internet is aware that's even a possibility. Don't they all look like Orlando Bloom or Hugo Weaving? The humans might be easier, I haven't looked for them yet.

Thanks in advance, and good luck!


2-14 BOB

Yes to TMO for no evil members of the guild. Chaotic yes, that fits in with who Ilero is known to be. No one who is part of the main group is known to have done evil things. Again, yes chaotic, sometimes thoughtless to the effects on others, but overall the group is known to be a force both for good and mostly lawful.

Typically a non-player controlled thieves guild would have evil personalities as part of it. Sometimes evil pretending to be good to get a foothold in and corrupt from inside. In the case of the Guild you have created something that will highlight skills used for a different mindset so while evil might find them useful for the most part it will be people who want to do good in their own way. Come out of the shadows to help, want to be a loner but still help, in the case of Acorn wanting a bit of excitement but also to help guard/spy on this new population of humans that is moving a little too close to her homeland, etc. You get to roleplay them all out, use them for adventures as you see fit, etc. After we are all settled in again for the next story arc you will get a better feel for the flow of how you want to move this forward.

TMO - iirc, Ilero is actually Neutral, not Chaotic. ;) He's fairly conservative and reasonably law-abiding. He's also just *extremely* impulsive at times. 0:) And that's what he's most famous for, if he can be considered famous.


2/13 TMO

Umm... Bob - When randomly generating these personalities, I came up on a situation I hadn't considered before. This one came up EVIL (very). I assume you don't want evil NPCs, same as no evil PCs? I'm going to regen this one anyways, just asking for the future. Thanks.


2/11 TMO

Onaldkelrad TruebloodLanekAcornOppleby FiddlefenGuioteJon the SailorCurrently UnnamedElf or Orc?

I also noticed that, totally without thinking about it, I've been doing only male characters (besides Acorn, who I didn't create). I will make sure there are some females in the group too.


2/11 TMO

I'm still constantly being tickled by the different reactions everyone has to the whole death thing. :)


2/10 Carissa

To-Do List for this week:

  1. Debate the name of Dragon's Maw to change to The Maw or to something different. For more information: click here.
  2. Go read about the new church and give Mario your input and/or opinions. To see it: click here.
  3. Provided he still wants it, scroll a few posts down for TMO's request of personality quirks. To read the request, seriously, just scroll down.
  4. Decide on more names and designate some buildings! Three unoccupied buildings still needing to be decided occupation. No link to click, just look below for suggestions from BOB and try to have a suggestion/preference by Friday:
    • List of potential additional residents to consider recruiting and or uses for the three currently un-specified buildings: Warehouse for dry goods, stone mason, leather worker, community storage in one of the small hamlets, apothecary, dress maker, carpenter, hunt/trapper, shepherd, wool merchant, fortune teller, tourist trap for visitors to Estate, the possibilities are endless.
    • (Did I just imaging trading post was an option...?)
  5. (To be filled in later if needed).

And request from me to add vials to the list of things bought OR for next shopping trip. Forgot those for font requirements to make holy water so unsure if we'd have gotten them earlier or if that's something we'd have bought later. OR if it was already included in the cost. Even then, a few extra empty bottles because always useful, right? :)

At 5 gp for each, I'm thinking just 10?


2/9 Lisa

For TMO - I wasn't sure where to put this. Move if there is a better place.

Power Word, Sleep - Red Wizard
(Conjuration/Summoning)\\ Level: 2
Range: 60 yds.
Components: V
Casting Time: 1
Duration: 5 rds./level
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: Neg.

This spell is like the normal 1st-level sleep spell, but it needs no somatic or material components.
When the power word sleep spell is cast, one or more creatures (other than undead and other creatures specifically excluded from the effects) fall into a comatose sleep. All affected creatures must be within 30 feet of each other. The spell affects 2d4 Hit Dice or levels of creatures. Those with 4+3 Hit Dice or more are unaffected. The center of the area of effect is chosen by the spellcaster. The creatures with the least Hit Dice are affected first, and partial effects are ignored.
For example, a wizard casts power word sleep at three kobolds, two gnolls, and an ogre. The roll (2d4) result is 4. All the kobolds and one gnoll are affected (1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 2 = 3 1/2 Hit Dice). Note that the remainder is not enough to affect the last gnoll or the ogre.
Slapping or wounding awakens affected creatures but normal noise does not. Awakening requires one entire round.
Notes: Common for the Red Wizards of Thay, uncommon for conjurers from the FORGOTTE REALMS setting; otherwise, virtually unknown.

TMO - Thanks! I've added the text to the spell on her character sheet!


2-9 BOB

Yes to Marisu ret-conned with some RP with Anastasia back in Doeskin. Later this afternoon will set up a story arc page for that.

TMO - Thanks!


2-9 TMO

Okay, Marisu's plan was as soon as they got back from the wedding to take Anastasia and reclaim control of her Estate from whatever Anastasia left in charge. Marisu has absolutely zero faith in those people. She will want to get personal control back immediately. After that it would make sense in character for her to spend time in Dragon Fen helping out. Since we're not stuck in doing things in chronological order, unless that poses plot problems for you, we should be able to do some retroactive RP for that. If it does pose plot problems for you, let me know what kind so I can try to help come up with a reason for her not to do as she planned.


2-8 Spring

Probably going to be late. Truck maintenance issue.


2-8 BOB

For the Guild members I would think personalities would be better for you. Especially at first they will have limited interactions all related to roleplaying rather than combat. The next few sessions will be covering the remaining part of building adventures. Then onto the next story arcs where you might want to send one of the guild members out (for you to play) rather than Ilero or Shur.

TMO - "Will do. It'll be interesting to see how these turn out. For tonight, if any are needed, I'll probably stick to the three with personalities already partially established, although the one with a 3 charisma oughtta be fun. :)"


2/7 TMO

Bob, I've got the stats all assigned to the Guild members, but that's it so far. What should be my next priority with them, names and personalities, or stats, class info and levels? The soft info, or the hard? ;)


2/7 John

I think the same or similar idea will work work the church as the manor, take a floor off and make it a separate building or like the lighthouse you may not have seen yet, two buildings attached by a 10 x 20 hall. For role-playing and timming issues, I thought it might make more sense for certain encounters to happen on the outskits, like Travler's Way so the Manor house can be finished properly.


2/7 TMO

I think the core problem with the house disagreement is that Lisa was trying to build Branwyn's private residence and home, and Bob was doing Lady Branwyn's Administration Center. I'm not speaking for either one of them here, just what it looks like looking in from outside.

Would it work if we split the build into two? Branwyn's private home as one building, and a separate one for all the Lordly accoutrements that are needed to administer her lands?

@TMO: That is exactly what the problem is. If I had known prior it was going to be an office rather than a home, I would have said to build Branwyn a 2-story house and then adjacent have the staff/office bldg. before we spent the money and had all the rolls for building what we did. Given that Bob has already built what he wanted and we have rolled and paid for everything in one bldg. I'm not sure we can go back at this point without even more aggravation than has already occurred. Lisa

BOB - I thought it was always obvious that the Estate needed a place for the Count to live and run the Estate from. No one expects Branwyn to have a full Castle like the Drakes or the Citadel on the Vilmar Estates. Everyone starts small and builds up.

I do not care about the actual building, you have square footages to create what ever you want. Mario did that with the Church of Otterville and TMO is doing that with the buildings to create the Lighthouse and Guild house.

The part that I said could/should be there depending on time spent and funding was the Motte in particular. Just like Jistille was built. Create a Motte, put a large building on it, when you can afford it put another building, etc. Then put a wall and gatehouse up around the edges later on. For Dragon Fen you had four things on the plan: a tower for the apprentices, a barn/workout space for the fighters, a building for the lab, and a house for the Count. Lisa made it clear to everyone that she wanted all the characters to have their own places, that the players got what they felt they wanted. That was all accomplished. The key stumbling block now is the final part of the Manor House. You know you will be hosting the Queen when she stays with you, hosting other Lords when they stay. You have a thousand people or so in the Estate, some of them will seek shelter during times of stress.

I am not telling anyone what they have to do with their building plans. I keep telling everyone to make a map, look it over, then make the changes, etc. Everyone can do what they want with the building pieces you have. You can stack the tower on top of the lab if you want.

This is for the group to design and decide. I am going to make the adventures based on what you have, who is living where, etc.


2/5 Carissa

Trying to figure out what loose ends (not to be confused with Loosend) need tying up for the moment and organize what is needed because everything is everywhere. This is the current list I have so please confirm, deny, or add to it:

  1. Force Spring, Ryan, Michael, and Mario to finish naming the last villages. There are three unnamed and it would be nice if one or three or four of you named something. If you do not know what the current names are, please: click here.
  2. Finalize supply list from when we visited Loosend. I cannot say if it's too late to add to it, not up to me since that was two sessions ago, but do need confirmation we did buy those items so we can add them to the appropriate list (such as Health Potion to Home Base). If you don't know what I'm talking about: click here.
  3. There are two names that are in some debate. Please add your opinions, and/or have them ready by Friday. If you want to know which names: click here.
  4. Double check your people are where you currently want them to be. Nothing is permanent (mostly probably), but it helps to have an idea. If you could, please: click here.

Is there other information that needs to be nicely organized somewhere? Manor information is under the direction of TMO so I'm ignoring all of that, but any other requirements or info to consolidate you know of? I know things are posted every bit of everywhere. I like organization. Please direct me to things that are not clear so I can see if it can be reposted/formatted to made clearer and make me feel a little less crazy trying to keep up.

AND as a nice reminder, please keep an eye on Recent Changes (also a link so click it even though it doesn't say "click here") to know what's been updated, or edited, or changed. I think most everyone knows this page exists, but you know what they say about making assumptions!


2-4 TMO

For you Lisa: The Truth About Catapults: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x-vv0FCIkQ

Thanks for the lesson! :-) It's a good thing that Branwyn's catapult or mangonel (if we have to!) is that its purpose is purely recreational. The farmers and livestock will still have to be on their guard, but it is comforting to know the odds are against her taking out the whole newly built town. Lisa


2-2 BOB

So the drama over on Discord is done now. We apparently have maps to use for the manor and they are now up in Klooge to use.

We need one more vote from Ryan, Spring, Michael or Mario for the selling of the yarn to make it a majority.


2-2 Lisa

The writ has been spent. I kept spending with the platinum coins, but we are short 8,000 gp. I can put a combination of our gold and some gems together, etc. OR, we have an 8000 gp ball of yarn or 8,000 gp dragon tooth pipe. Any thoughts? I am leaning towards selling the yarn and calling it a day.

Votes for selling Yarn -

  1. John
  2. TMO (although I think the cachet of having a 8K gp ball of yarn is great, I too vote yarn)
  3. Carissa (but if we make a pair of socks, can we sell it for more...?)
  4. Mario

Votes for selling Dragon Tooth -

  1. Mario

2-1 TMO

Okay - time to make things unique! I have 12 new followers. 3 of them already have at least most of a personality. 9 of them are complete blanks. Please give me 1 or 2 random non-evil personality quirks. I will make sure every quirk is used when building these followers. Although I honestly don't know how much screen time they'll get.

  • The one who has a big family and what ever comes up says someone in his family did something similar - John
  • The one that always repeats what they are asked - John
  • Showboater and/or cupcake topper (are they the same thing? always showing off and/or trying to outdo someone) - Carissa
  • Horrendous memory and/or bad at listening (also similar and or same; imagining a game of telephone...) - Carissa

2-1 Spring

Sorry for the last-minute drop out. I has a tired.


1-29 BOB

Thank you to Michael for working on the map of the Manor. Grab me for any explanations needed, will catch up on the Discord stuff soon too.

I am of the opinion that the beginning of this upcoming session will conclude the planning portion for this story arc.

  1. - Make sure everyone has what they needed to out of training
  2. - Make sure everyone has what they wanted to build on the list
  3. - Double check totals for characters assisting with building
  4. - Based on above information make final decisions on what to build
  5. - Finish the appraising and identify to just get that finished please

Then we start rolling encounters and building checks and moving into lots of roleplaying and such.

Everyone will take turns rolling all the various things until we are done. No one person is going to roll all 48 months worth of building for example.

I have two adventures right now in mind for during and shortly after the building process, plus at least two more that make good sense not sure when they will happen.


1/29 Michael

Honestly, with how much bob has to fix in my posts, i'm surprised he still allows it :)

Per request, I will be taking the manor picture sketch and translating it into an CAD drawing. I've been told that it's on the Discord. I am incredibly busy this week but hope to have it done by Friday.


1/27 John

The number no longer matters. Welcome to Traveler's Way


1-26 BOB

We will play next week {Feb 1st} and I plan to start with the second round of building provided that everyone has their training all organized.

There are details of all the buildings that are going into this second round. By the end everyone will have their own residence or a place to stay. There will be adequete farmers for all of the non-farmers living here. There will be a nice Dragon Fen Manor house complex, several churches and 8 villages scattered out across Dragon Fen. On the far eastern portion of the Estate will be Ilero's Scouting Guild {a better name will come, or one will be asigned :) } that has a 100 foot tall lighthouse. That tall of a lighthouse can be seen from about 9 miles away through The Mist so almost the entire Estate can see it.

Please everyone be ready and or post before Friday starts your new level and your updated spell level stats so that Mario can do the updated sheet for building. We are picking up the day after the birth, Branwyn needs a month at least to recover then she can contribute. Ilero's new guild members will show up starting that month, and additional ones each month from there on in until everything is built.


1-25 Spring

Turns out there's no game anyway. I forgot to check the News & Updates page first before logging in. So, anyway, you are not really absent after all!


1-25 Ryan

Hello,

Sorry to spring this so late, but we are all sick at our house, and I won't be able to come to session today. Sorry about this. Have fun, everyone.


1-24 BOB

For John and TMO for spell research. To learn a new spell the rules are on the Spell Research page. Marisu would not go do research, she finds her spells by happenstance. Miranda can research just about anything she wants.

To learn a spell by copying it from some other mage's spell book, like you have in the past from Branwyn, or with the new borrowed Dream Magic books is a much shorter time. However you need access to those books obviously. In Loosend there is a mage guild. You have to be a member of the guild to use their library. To be a member of the guild you have to commit to spending 1 month per year there in the guild house, doing copy work, research, etc. That is just to use the library in the guild for research. To borrow someone's spell book to make a copy of something out of it would mean you have to have some sort of relationshop with them and as is tradtional do some sort of favor. Getting material components for spells, or research or ink, etc.

For the individual spells listed I will need to find Calm for you but the others are all in Klooge I think.


1/23 John

There are no plans for Hoffman beyond role-playing what comes up. I am not clicking off time too go from a wandering warrior to Lord of a castle. There are too many things to work out in character. I only hope when the time is right for Hoffman, we will be able to handle it as a party.


1-22 BOB

SO I updated the upcoming costs for building Dragon Fen Estate. You are now current with I think most if not all of the planned buildings through building the Manor, the new farmers needed for Ilero's guild and the track through Valoris Wood.

Anyone who wants to sketch out buildings is free to do so. We do need names for the first towns especially now that there will be four more added to the Estate soon.

Once all of this is done on the site until our next session on 2019 02 01 we can spend that session doing the actual walk through the building process. This will be more extensive than the previous quick build because you will be taking up more than quadruple the amount of time and more than 100 times the costs. There will be at least a couple of encounters to deal with that I am betting are more complicated than a thunderstorm and tornado knocking down some buildings.

THEN after all the building is done we deal with farmers showing up, followers showing up, everyone gets more XP through the building process, etc. Potentially more training from that XP.

I think we are at least three more sessions of building complications before we get to there.

THEN after all that John can start with the planning for Hoffman's stronghold and finding the funding for that. His will be different because he needs to clear a significant amount of land first before building, then a LOT more farmers. For Branwyn and Ilero the total was about 104 buildings for 630 farmers to feed 72 people. Hoffman will be attracting 70-150 followers so you are looking at more than 208 more buildings for 1,260 more farmers just for new followers without counting needing more blacksmiths, armorers, mill, leather worker, etc. etc. etc.

By the time you are comfortable with saying the Dragon Fen Estates are near complete for all the existing characters you will have a population of over 20 villages and more than 4,000 people.

Farmers & Bookkeepers :)

Then onto the next story arc of this Era.

  • Sheesh. Dragon Fen Estate is going to have more people than the town I live in IRL. - TMO

1-22 TMO

Just wanted to apologize for not being a full participant in all this. I've just been swamped this last couple of weeks at home, not sure if it's going to ease up over the coming two weeks or not. I suspect not. Please do ping me in Discord if you have anything you want me to weigh in on. I may need a bit of catch-up though. You were all quite busy on the site over the weekend and I hadn't seen any of it until just right now. ;)


1-20 BOB

Very glad that leaving Klooge up is helpful to all.

Yes to John swapping out the Club for something else. High Mastery in Axes would be very very rare, would likely have to train your self

Yes to Mario for picking which ever weapon is best.

Yes to Carissa for changing Chat Color for Thistle

General comments on comments there:

  • Hill Giant transformation in dream - no save if Etienne really thought his father was a monster
  • Very glad about some skills with low stats applied, it means picking things for the character not for the numbers
  • Yes swimming allows you to just swim
  • Yes there are calm lakes around, relaxing, calm, you will not even feel the leeches attaching themselves
  • It will be interesting to see the Hallucinatory Forest details again, will post that spell if no one beats me to it, lots of potential there for Dragon Fen
Illusion/Phantasm Sphere: Plant
Range: 80 yds. Components: V, S

Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 7 Area of Effect: 40-ft. sq./level Saving Throw: None

When this spell is cast, a hallucinatory forest comes into existence. The illusionary forest appears to be perfectly natural and is indistinguishable from a real forest. Priests attuned to the woodlands--as well as such creatures as centaurs, dryads, green dragons, nymphs, satyrs, and treants--recognize the forest for what it is. All other creatures believe it is there, and movement and order of march are affected accordingly. Touching the illusory growth neither affects the magic nor reveals its nature. The hallucinatory forest remains until it is magically dispelled by a reverse of the spell or a dispel magic spell. The area shape is either roughly rectangular or square, in general, and at least 40 feet deep, in whatever location the caster desires.The forest can be of less than maximum area if the caster wishes. One of it sedges can appear up to 80 yards away from the caster.

For clarity on timing.

Everyone is at Orchard house when Branwyn has her baby girl. There are a couple of training type things still not completed. Kel's thief training is not done. Foto and Marisu might want to do more spell research along with the other mages. Brawnyn will be out of commission for building purposes or spell research for 1 month.

We are picking up the next session at 5-5-346 SKR just after the birth for ease of timing everyone going forward.


1/19 Carissa

Just making sure people see BDF-OOC so you have a chance to update character supplies (or send letter or do...whatever) for when they were in Loosend.


1-19 BOB

Yes to Michael, getting full potential out of the long sword and no empty slot for Dagger left

Klooge is up again this week or two or who knows

Branwyn had a baby on 5-5-346 SKR and Mercy is older and SURPRISE! Everyone is older too.

When you get the chance to look at your sheets and check on your age.

The mages have 54 days for Branwyn and 45 days for the rest of the mages to learn individual spells, go log into klooge make your proficiency checks and rolls there as you learn spells one by one.


1/18

Bob to clarifiy, was that training completed at the end of the ambassador stuff? I'm trying to keep track because he had been hanging on to the weapon prof slot for a loooooong time that was earmarked as "Dagger Mastery". Eventually we abandoned that when I found out the dagger reaaaally didn't do all the much damage.

HOWEVER, I don't recall him ever getting to use that point. Did we use it for longsword prof? Because if we did, I need to check to see Hugh is getting his full attack bonuses every time we go into combat.

Thank you for keeping eye on stats.

-Harmon


1/15 Lisa

As far as I can tell, these are things to get done on Friday - BOB correct me if I'm mistaken

  • Finish Appraising
  • Cast Identify spell on potions and magic items - If there are things on the Home Base page I missed, please put them in red or add them here/there for inclusion - I need to add the Rod of Resurrection to see how many charges are left on it
  • Run through every character's training/spell needs so BOB can determine how much time it takes and how much it will cost
  • Roleplay Intro to Skarphedrin
  • Roleplay Branadarus reveals - Optional. I can do this on the site and time travel back. I wanted to tell him baby & vamp mom so no more secrets. Where this happens depends on if anyone cares to see it or just read on the site. Or not.
  • Click off to Loosend for training and:
    • Roleplay Miranda and Hoffman story
    • While we are in Loosend, I would like to sell off that Celtic priest scroll and the 139 Greek scrolls - we don't have to roleplay, but if we sell, I'd like a total of what we are getting from them. Greeks cast Resurrection so perhaps we can have them add a few charges if the rod is low

1-13 BOB

Lots of good things happening.

I am leaving KloOge up for now we will see how we go over the week.

Still looking for a name for the fourth location and if there is a different name for the hamlet associated with Dragon Fen Manor. Or will be be Dragon Fen Manor, and there is Dragon Fen Manor House?


1-12 BOB

First round of building is completed. I double checked all the math, building sizes, costs for furnishings, extra costs for the church, etc. There is a grand total of 113 buildings over the 3 months of building time and a total cost of 15,724 including furnishings. Details on the Building Dragon Fen pages.

Now everyone can do more details about the various things that are currently built and decide what more you want to build after the next round of training is completed.

Then we go on to more building for the Manor House and the Scouting Guild.


1-10 BOB

So trying an experiment.

I have KloOge up right now and I will leave it up all night and day until we play tomorrow night. I hope that it all stays stable. This will let everyone look in on their characters, etc. I hope to restart it at the end of Friday night and again leave it up for all night and day Saturday for people to continue to work on things as they wish.


1/9 John

It has been Miranda's plan for some time to teach swimming as she has a high wisdom. I had aksed how many she could teach at a time and now if it can be taught while traveling.


1-9 BOB

Please keep planning and organizing what you need/want to do.

This is a multi-step process.

First people need to know what they want. Then we look at what is good for everyone overall to move things forward.

It might mean something like this (using semi random numbers):

  • Some people need training to make them more powerful for more advanced building, those people go off for 12 weeks.
  • While those people are gone, Branwyn and some use their abilities for building 3 groups of farm buildings in 3 weeks. This includes residences for Hoffman, Hugh, etc.
  • Then Branwyn studies spells for 3 weeks. Others continue building villages and such. Potential small adventures.
  • Some people return, more studying and training continues.
  • Everyone is back 14 weeks in and construction on the major structures like Branwyn's Manor, Ilero's guild happen. During this time several small side adventures happen.
  • Then we take stock again for XP and Trainging and potentially even more Building.

THEN we declare Dragon Fen completed.

Then future things like Hoffman's full strong hold can be planned and financing organized. Maybe Regor the Mad gives Hoffman a building loan.....


1-8 John

I wanted to be clear I am role playing my suggestion but open to any ideas, I just think of this a phase 1, which may include something for Ilerro, and Shi but that leaves room for roleplay. My reason for the letter and the placement of the letter is I hope to introduce an NPC/ Possible follower/ henchman during or soon after the clearing / building phase which will help me tell more of the story leading up to a potential wedding. It should allow for the possibility of roleplay the trip to Loosend that may or may not be handled live.


1-6 BOB

I created all the pages for the new Story Arc and moved what I could quickly find to the OOC pages there.

Going to do what I can but we do need everyone to read and contribute especially on:

A - Training for your character (I posted updates on the Dragonslayer Training Plans) B - Where do you want to live? How do you want to live?

All the Experience Points are caught up through the end of Wedding Crashers and Bebbux including the 10% bonus for all characters. There is a lot of training that can be done.

  • Johan
  • Marisu
  • Mara
  • Snee
  • Kenna
  • Foto
  • Miranda
  • Hoffman - is now 9th level and can think about establishing his own keep and attract followers

So this brings up another new wrinkle to work out on Building Dragon Fen which I will expand on there


1/5 John

Based on my measurements Jistelelle Estates is about sixteen square miles, please correct me if I am wrong. I also do not see a map with Valaris Woods on it for reference. I will post in the IC for Qui but I was not expect to be caring a body, just some ash and maybe a few teeth for sentimental reasons. (And Spell Components)


1-4 BOB

I will update the XP for everyone later this weekend to include Wedding Crashers and Bebbux.

Please make sure you have an idea of the new habitation you want in Dragon Fen so that when we start next session we can organize building and training and more building, etc.

There will be several new small adventures to go along with this as well. Review links below and the Dragon Fen page.

We will need ideas from everyone for potential things you might find in this abandoned territory also.

The real start of For the Love of Mist now begins.

Also I semi forgot Qui last night at the end. We clicked to Jistille but did you really want to bring a dead body all that way? Did you want to visit the Gypsies first before clicking? We can do that on the IC pages here if you like.


12-26 BOB

For upcoming planning sessions.

  • Old Man Millers tavern, about 6-8 hours west of the Jistelle Estate's area, Brothers visit every few days, Elmond and Toth were the first pair the group met there Oct 29 10 for first meeting
  • The Witch Kulgarth
  • Grey Death
  • Craniate Wastes
  • Valoris Wood

-- Oh gee, and just why did Bob post a link to Grey Death? It's not like anybody in the group is sick or anything are they... oh... -- TMO