Elementary - Out of Character discussions
ok a couple of things first of all foriso can tell you what "everybody" says about vampires they cant survive in the day and they cant stand holy symbols. so when did the party meet with sandeford BOTH times, in the DAYLIGHT HOURS and in a CHURCH so why would foriso even remotely think that sandeford is a vampire answer HE WOULDNT. secondly Guy on the other hand knows sandeford is a vampire BUT when i mentioned vampires as foriso i wasnt even thinking about what i knew it just happened to be the first monster that popped into mind, and since i had been reading one of my vampire the masquerade books its easy to see why vampires would pop into mind at that point.
Bob, Indigo never told Kristelle to drop it. He said he was okay, and she said 'you'd tell me if anything was wrong, wouldn't you' and he said I would if I could, I mean yes everything's fine'. How could that do anything but make her more suspicious? It sounded like something was wrong but he was for some reason unable to tell anyone. Sure, let's not at all react to that.
Obviously the group knows their actions have consequences. We've certainly dealt with enough of those consequences in the past, and we deal with them every time we go somewhere or meet someone. I don't think we act like there are no consequences (except for Foriso - although I think he just gets caught up in the moment of insulting people he doesn't like). I don't think the remark wherein he used the term vampire was, grammatically, the way Guy intended it to be (at least, I HOPE not! I had to read it several times to glean any sense from it). It was not spoken smugly, as if to say "I know your secret". Guy should have had Foriso choose a different word to use - werewolf, or gnome, or something. But he was not rubbing something in Sandeford's face, and the tone used would have conveyed that. How many times have we gone off the rails because of a mistaken meaning?
You talk about how he's an obviously powerful person, but all Kristelle saw was a crappy little tiny temple in the bad part of town. I don't remember him telling us he was well-connected with the Council of Churches, but even at that, why would he be in that crappy place if he was? (speaking from a character's point of view, Bob) Why shouldn't Kristelle believe he's just a pathetic little man, greedy and grasping, pretending to be someone of power and 'worth'? He hasn't shown himself to be anything great, and talk is cheap. And to your point of the insulting the Gods in a city filled with churches, I have only one word. Sanctuary. Yes, Sanctuary, which apparently makes it okay for anyone to do anything. So why would we see that as something to gasp over?
In the end, I guess it's all just perception. We form a picture in our minds of what it looks like and how it sounds, and because we're all different, we all form a different picture. For instance, Lisa, I don't for one second imagine we were all standing in formation and facing forward. I picture a more informal, casual kind of standing around, which means people standing on a diagonal, or looking back and forth between to people talking, or looking around when they're not speaking. When I play the conversations in my mind, I hear Sandeford joking about the stick up Athena's butt, and the laughing replies to that. I'm sure you all 'hear' them differently. Tone is everything, and a text game doesn't convey it.
K
Can't speak for Guy, but I DIDN'T have any ooc knowledge of what was going on. I missed the first meeting with the guy and didn't read the chat log at all. I just reacted to Indigo. As for not noticing him, at the time he was the most interesting thing in the room. As I stated, Imari is bored here. She doesn't like cities, thinks most of the people we've met in this city are borderline insane, and Indigo is becoming an honorary barbarian of Partik. So she noticed his reaction and became curious. That's all.
-Mike
I do think actions should and do have consequences. Technically, yes, everyone was in character, but then so was Sandeford. He is a vampire with a nice little set-up and great influence in the City. If someone threatens that, why wouldn’t he just eliminate the problem? All characters have their own personalities, drives and goals. We react with ours and they with theirs. If they clash too wildly or we threaten their interests, there’s going to be a fight. How can we not expect that? I just really don’t understand the need to antagonize characters that can kill us in a heartbeat. I have been beating my head against the wall trying to understand why it is a good idea to piss off a vampire. The only thing I can come up with is that people don’t believe that consequences will come. It will be fun and then they can walk away. And then I start hitting that wall again.
The fact that Sandeford told Indigo his secret isn’t really the point to me. This secret did not have to come out. By the way, Indigo is carrying around another secret and you don’t see him taunting the character in question with it. Maybe in other people’s worlds secrets have no meaning, but this is not the case with either Branwyn or Indigo.
I think if the players did not know what was happening, the characters would not have reacted the way they did. In game, Indigo moved behind Imari and Branwyn – not a big deal. It wasn’t until Foriso said vampire, which he had no earthly reason to say, did Indigo get nervous. And even then, all he did was back up some more. If the group was facing Sandeford because they were talking to him, how would they even notice what Indigo was doing anyway? I think there was a lot that came into play because of outside knowledge that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. But since it did, now we have to deal with it.
In a way this is good. It was time for Indigo to do a little growing up. If you read the IC thread I started, you will notice that Indigo lies to Branwyn without a thought or a flinch. There will be no more stammering from Indigo when he feels the need to lie.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by the characters on the In Character page belong to the characters only and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the players/game masters that own them.
Lisa
I think the point is that the group acts like there are no consequences to their actions.
Here is an obviously powerful person who told you he is well connected with the Council of Churches, who by the way you have already had a run in with, and that does not even take into account that his particular church is one for insulting Gods in a city based on churches. This is someone you should treat with respect and be careful of. {and is the exact problem the group consistently has when confronted with powerful NPCs}
Kristelle sees Indigo act hurt and ignores him when he says he is ok and to drop it.
Foriso uses the term vampire out loud to him. Either to piss him off or to show off that he knows the secret.
Imari did not know any of the earlier stuff but again when Indigo said to drop it she did not.
Each roleplay was "in character" and was how the characters do normally react.
Are the characters in their traditional setting? Out in the wilderness depending on each other and not having to worry about what others think of them? So they need to think and react differently.
How could this have gone differently and much better? Kristelle could have taken Indigo at his word and talked to him in private later. Foriso should never have said anything about vampires and definitely should be trying hard to not upset another Council of Churches important person. Imari could have listened to Indigo and discussed things in private.
I think that the roleplaying and being in character was well done. As I told Mike what he did by watching Sandeford's actions was good roleplaying and deductive reasoning when looking at in a separate isolated context. If that had been done the first time you encountered Sandeford Indigo would not have gotten to know the secret I beleive. I think that Kaz plays Kristelle's protective nature very well. Guy plays the caustic jerk of Foriso well.
The problem is that you have to accept the consequences of such things as well.
The example of "we need to burn the body" from the previous day. When told no you did not. Maybe because Scarlett was not there. Imagine what happens if a fireball goes off. You catch three or four BLOCKS of the city on fire. Think there will not be consequences? Foriso lets go a figurative fireball by insulting the Prince and taunting Sandeford. There are consequences.
You know now that you have a chance to make the Administrative Council happy with you. You have at best made the Council of Churches neutral with your insulting of one of its leaders. You have a powerful NPC that was friendly with you and now is neutral at best.
As to that point. I try to create some basic NPCs that you can trust you know their motivations and know their place in your world. You have good guys and bad guys. Then there are the unusual ones. Treants for example. This was a chance to interact with a powerful person in the city that could be a resource for many different things. He never showed being upset at the group, was helpful and informative. He fit in the story line properly and you could have him in the Friend column easily.
His interactions with Indigo were positive given the fact that Indigo was acting as a thief entering his church invisible. No one in your group saw anything wrong with being invisible and entering the church in violation of the rules you knew were in place. He forgave you that and still worked with Indigo. Indigo was able to handle that issue and helped solve the problem for you. His quirk of sharing his secret with Indigo fits in both with how Indigo as a character is (everyone likes him and shares things with him, he has a swanmay friend for goodness sakes!) and the quirky nature that all well rounded high level NPCs need to give you something to remember them by and interact with.
Then the rest of the group forces Sandeford to reconsider his choice of trusting Indigo by going back to the church and insulting him and grilling him. The group had three meetings with him the first went reasonably well, the second went even better then the third was a disaster.
The other thing as Players to consider is the idea of WHY for this adventure. In a world of magic and in a city full of churches and priests who can cast essentially unlimited Divination spells why does someone need a group of outsiders to solve a mystery. That might not be something the group wants to explore but it is something to at least consider as part of the background.
I have decided that I will run another mystery adventure in the future back under the Mist so that the divination question does not come up. Also because I do think that overall we all had fun with this short story and I want to continue our lack of dungeon crawls.
I am going to continue doing the interactions on the In Character section with Indigo and as that develops (if he leaves the church) with others back at the Inn.
BOB
<<<<<<< I've missed half this adventure, so I can only half follow the mystery as a player. As a character Imari is BORED. She doesn't like the city, doesn't care about art, or the weird ways of city dwellers. When she saw one of her flock (pun intended) in distress she took notice. That drew her to take a closer look at the guy, and that made her question him. There was finally something interesting to her, so she decided to try and solve that little mystery. Hell, if he told her he was a vampire she wouldn't really do anything. She'd never step foot in there again as he's a dirty undead, but she wouldn't go out of her way to kill him or anything.
The real point is if this guy is soooooo concerned with his secret, why tell anyone at all? Everyone knows that a secret told to one person always gets told to just one more person, who tells just one person. I personally think that guy's pretty stupid for telling anyone at all.
-Mike
======= I know people see things differently, but I never before realised what a disconnect there is here. Wow.
First of all, Bob, I don't understand the comment in IC about Kristelle not realising that loyalty goes both ways. What the hell is that supposed to mean? They go into the 'temple', everything is fine, then she sees Indigo basically cringe in fear from someone they got along just fine with - someone that only Indigo was alone with. How do you think someone as protective as Kristelle would react to that? Furthermore, her care is not for who/what he is, but that he doesn't hurt her friend. That is so in-character for her that I'm shocked you are surprised by it.
Secondly, Foriso didn't try to find out anything from Sandeford but if he knows a way to contact some local thieves. Okay, so it's a potentially insulting question to ask a pompous jackass like the Prince, but someone who's obviously familiar with the street people (evidenced by the little urchin and the apple, who I originally thought was Foriso's pickpocket). How is that an 'abysmal lack of common sense'?
After all this time, I'd think you'd understand our characters and how they react to things. That's part of your job as GM. Our job as players is to roleplay our characters and be true to who they are - WHICH WE WERE. And if you wanted subtle, you shouldn't have made us a group of mercenaries. Geez, Bob.
Kaz
>>>>>>>
Wow was I wrong.
Can not wait to hear the explanations on this one.
Someone please tell me how this got so bad so fast.
I admit it was my fault for telling Lisa as a whisper instead of totally private message the secret of him being a vampire. I apologize to Lisa for that.
But from there, three different party members go after him demanding to know what he did to Indigo.
Why would he trust Indigo after that? Even after doing a divination to know that "as of this moment" he has not broken his trust why would he believe that the group will not bully Indigo into revealing it? Or using Divination on their own to find out?
Why would he just sit around and wait for something to go wrong, why not be proactive and try to limit the damage now that the group has acted this way?
The group has the subtly of a bull in a china shop.
So at least another week on this THEN maybe see about wrapping up what is left.
Then we can try to figure out how to continue.
BOB
Congrats on completing the story arc. Still a couple of things to wrap up on Friday.
What are you going to tell Watson? What will you tell anyone from the Council of Churches?
I will award XP for the story arc at some point this week so you will all know on Friday your current standings and training needs.
BOB
Thanks John! And it would be a very good idea except for one minor detail that wasn't mentioned on this page. We believe there is a necklace in one of the busts. Now that I think about it, if it looks like buying them at a reasonable price seems to be out of the question, maybe someone could get very clumsy and knock it off a shelf or drop it? The only problem with that approach though is while we would recover the necklace, we might not catch the criminal. The more we veer from the story the less assured we can be we will get the same result.
Lisa
With only this page as reference, publicizing that you have a collection hopping for someone to break in or contact you does not require you to actually have said items but if you steal said items the former owners will know where to find them. Unless you have good fakes, but then you probably not need to steal them.
John
That was my understanding from where we left off last week.
I really hope we can buy them because I have to mention that Branwyn will not be part of stealing anything from the Mage's Guild. If that turns out to be what the group wants to do, she and Indigo can go shopping or grab a bite to eat somewhere.
Lisa
So I want to have this clear before we start next session.
The group intends on visiting the two people who purchased the other two busts and purchasing or stealing it from them. Then you plan on publicizing this collection some how. Finally you will have them at the inn with you and wait for someone to attempt to break in and steal/smash them.
It is definitely a different twist to the story than in the original so I commend everyone for that.
I want to be set so in theory we can wrap up this story arc in one more session then move onto training issues.
